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[Music]

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this hope radio for the masses as Lima

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between July he might been fulfilling

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the Army Air Forces has announced that a

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flying death - found and is now in the

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possession of the on a the babies we

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changed the game changer I occasionally

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think how quickly our differences

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worldwide would vanish if we were facing

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[Applause]

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this is fade to black with your host

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Jimmy Church on the game changer radio

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network and kgr a the global brain

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I need your help to get to the year

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[Music]

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you are listening to fade to black with

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Jimmy judge only Game Change in that

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word

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[Music]

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good evening fade to black

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this spoke radio for

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[Music]

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Matt says yeah man here we go today's

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Wednesday December 4th 2019 338 days

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into the new year just 27 days left

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[Music]

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we are live from a bunker a bunker

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somewhere in the middle of beautiful

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downtown Burbank California and I would

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like to welcome everybody listening all

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around the world all across the United

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States hither and thither to and fro

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back and forth east and west north and

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south far and near

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this is fade to black for kjc are the

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game changer network mkg are a the

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planet I am your host Jimmy Church all

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right

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what is cracking everybody how you doing

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how you doing I've been looking forward

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to the chauffeur for many years tonight

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we have very special guests Lynne picnic

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and Clyde Prince unbelievable

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that's right live from the UK and they

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are here to discuss their new book when

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God had a wife I'm holding it up to the

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camera there there you go there's the

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cover you can head over to Jimmy Church

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radio.com and click on their links and

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go and get yourself a copy of this this

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is a great great read we'll be

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discussing this book tonight tomorrow

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night deep Prasad is joining us live

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from India and that will complete our

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first time guests week here on fade to

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black and it has been amazing gregg

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braden on monday night just an

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absolutely incredible show last night I

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think will go down in history as the

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night that Neal called in and wow what a

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great night last night of the show and

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then tonight of course we have Lynne and

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Clive here tomorrow night Dee Prasad and

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to get things started tonight follow me

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on twitter at Jay Church Radio that's

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what you want to do at Jay George radio

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and hashtag F to B is the sandbox you

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can join the conversation there we will

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do a few thousand tweets tonight during

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the show and you can engage in the

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conversation right there with all the

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other fader knots right there hashtag if

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to be any

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questions or comments for it myself

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tonight or our guest Lynne and Clive you

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can post it right there at hashtag f2b Q

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on Twitter okay we are going to discuss

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a lot tonight with history and of course

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lost history and religion and these are

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questions that we all have as we go

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through our life's journey and tonight

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with Lynn and Clive - the best guests

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that we can have - to ask these

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questions and pursue these answers so

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you can do that right there

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hashtag f2b Q you can also email

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throughout the show of course at Jimmy

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and Jimmy Church radio.com

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linens live have researched historical

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and religious mysteries offer such

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bestsellers as the Stargate conspiracy

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in the temporal revelation which

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directly inspired The Da Vinci Code

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frequent speakers at conferences around

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the world they regularly appear on TV

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series such as forbidden history

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histories ultimate spies and meat-eating

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the medieval murder mysteries tonight

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we're gonna discuss their new book when

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God had a wife where they reveal the

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spiritual legacy of the Jewish goddesses

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and of course will examine the title

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itself when God had a wife the links for

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everything are over at uma Church

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radio.com and visit their website

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pigment prints.com and i would like to

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welcome for the first time to fade to

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black

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v prince and lynn picnic good evening

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you - good morning actually how are you

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good morning and good evening whatever

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it is we're doing very well with the

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coffee right on right on

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and before we get started before we get

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started you get the first-time guests

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disclaimer now the next time you're on

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the show you don't get it but tonight

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you do which is this Lynn and Clive it's

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just the three of us sitting on my couch

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having a conversation as friends and

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where the conversation starts it starts

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where it ends it ends but we're gonna

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end his friends there you go you ready

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to go yes ready when you are

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yeah the the first time the guest

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flamer started many many years ago I

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don't know how it did but the audience

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would not let me not do it after that

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it's I would get it in real time I get

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to it

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tweets and emails Jimmy you forgot the

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first time so it's a tradition and it's

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an honor that I am able to do it tonight

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with the two of you and let's actually

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let's let's do this I want to I want to

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go back to the beginning of everything

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but it's actually a simple question that

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we're going to start with did the

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research is kind of like the chicken or

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the egg thing did the research and the

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interest happen because it was something

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that intrigued you or did the research

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and the revelations happen because you

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wanted to stir the pot and go against

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the grain which one was it

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you mean the beginning of our careers

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yes yeah well no we began our career

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because we were absolutely intrigued by

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the Shroud of Turin and when and then it

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was suddenly declared you know a fake

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and we thought what it's a fake we

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agreed but it's the most remarkable fake

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ever so we actually was so red-hot honor

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and we eventually got offered a book

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deal and that's the beginning of our

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career in 1994 I think just thinking

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about your question you know I think

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really for us it started in each book

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comes about it's just because we think

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we have something to say you know we

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think we've noticed something or come

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across something that other people

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haven't or that you know we want to

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bring things to people's awareness so I

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think that's really what motivates us in

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all of in all of our books it's just we

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get to a point we research these things

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because we're interested you know we

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love mysteries who want to try and solve

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mysteries and there comes a point where

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we actually think actually we've got

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something something to say that we think

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people will want to listen to you know

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but what I mean the song we'd be doing

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this kind of thing anyway because it's

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just what what we were

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and very early on you must have learned

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some techniques in fighting back right

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because you are definitely stirring the

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pot and going against academia going

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against you know accepted religious

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dogma that is been ingrained for

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millennia and you've got to prepare for

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another fight right well yes I mean

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every book really turns out to be a bit

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of a fight although as class said we

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never set out to do that it's just the

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nature of you know what we discover so

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basically we just grit our teeth and say

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what we want to say and you know I mean

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we don't have any great technique for

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fighting back because often the the

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opposition if you like the form it takes

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is a sort of resounding silence you know

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as the old phrase they wouldn't give us

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the oxygen of publicity right right and

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and so because of that and and I totally

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appreciate that and because of that do

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you now not care what the critics have

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to say you're gonna do what you're gonna

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do anyway yes that's right I think

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that's something we came to a long time

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ago is that you know we have if we're

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going to do what we're going to do we're

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just going to have to ignore the critics

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or I'll respond to them yeah I mean a

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lot of things we write say particularly

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in the new book that appear to most sort

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of mass audience as beings are

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controversial are in fact things that

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are well-known within academia we've

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often found this with the books that

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we've written that you know things that

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the the specialists in these subjects

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are scholars in these subjects know and

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talk about among themselves and publish

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papers about in obscure through academic

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and then you know we come along and say

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this should be survived wider public

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more people we should know about this

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and then we put it out there and then

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critics start saying well you know this

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is outrageous and controversial and

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they're just making it up but we're

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actually quoting you know proper

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scholarly sources it's almost like this

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it kind of filter that or that yeah

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information doesn't get through

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particularly in religious matters there

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is a block that you know specialists

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scholars in the Bible have known for a

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long time certain things but nobody ever

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tells the churchgoer about them I think

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yeah there is a yeah I sort of block in

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there well we don't write this stuff

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just because we're naughty boy and girl

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right well just not just but there's

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another aspect to this too as well

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because when you first started off your

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career you have a certain amount of

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freedom because at that point you're

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still a little bit invisible if you know

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what I'm saying and then everything took

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off and when it took off in in 97 98 99

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it couldn't have taken off any bigger

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where everything just exploded and now

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you are very visible and how did you

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guys handle that with everybody coming

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at you from every direction the entire

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world later than you said it was it was

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really with The Da Vinci Code because

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you know Dan Brown based a lot of his

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content on our book the template

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revelation which had come out in 1997 so

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it was in the early years of 21st

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century

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it really was almost overwhelming

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because actually by pure coincidence if

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one believes in such things we shared a

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publisher with Dan Brown and in those

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days he didn't really do much publicity

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outside of the states so we actually

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were asked to do a lots of publicity

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almost on his behalf

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over here so we did you know

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lots of stuff as you could imagine we

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did debates with academics and with

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church people and you know we got I mean

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we got quite a lot of abuse let's put it

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that way

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quite a lot we've been we've been

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patronized and condescending to by the

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best I'll tell you and which is exactly

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my point

275
00:13:16,650 --> 00:13:12,430
to all of this where you had one life

276
00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:16,660
and now you are certainly living another

277
00:13:24,270 --> 00:13:20,290
life where you're being watched and

278
00:13:26,940 --> 00:13:24,280
questioned and and and observed whereas

279
00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:26,950
before things were probably a lot more

280
00:13:33,630 --> 00:13:28,090
simple right

281
00:13:37,230 --> 00:13:33,640
I guess so yes I mean before we met or

282
00:13:41,850 --> 00:13:37,240
when we met Lynn had kind of been part

283
00:13:42,750 --> 00:13:41,860
of the kind of parapsychological yes yes

284
00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:42,760
really

285
00:13:47,670 --> 00:13:44,890
so Lynn was more used to it than I was I

286
00:13:52,860 --> 00:13:47,680
used to have like a proper office job at

287
00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:52,870
the time so yeah the whole area of even

288
00:13:58,050 --> 00:13:56,050
dealing with the media and things was

289
00:13:59,579 --> 00:13:58,060
very new to me they've never been used

290
00:14:03,720 --> 00:13:59,589
to it because it's been in the media for

291
00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:03,730
quite a while before then but over the

292
00:14:09,510 --> 00:14:05,770
years you know getting on these debates

293
00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:09,520
learning how to handle criticism and

294
00:14:13,650 --> 00:14:12,010
attacks and hostility because in the end

295
00:14:17,130 --> 00:14:13,660
you just have to keep bringing everyone

296
00:14:18,900 --> 00:14:17,140
back to the facts yeah you know that

297
00:14:20,579 --> 00:14:18,910
good because although obviously we've

298
00:14:23,070 --> 00:14:20,589
come up with our own interpretation of

299
00:14:25,140 --> 00:14:23,080
those facts really that's that's for

300
00:14:26,340 --> 00:14:25,150
everyone that for every reader to do for

301
00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:26,350
themselves but what we're trying to

302
00:14:30,990 --> 00:14:28,570
establish is that you know that the

303
00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:31,000
basic grounding of the facts the things

304
00:14:35,340 --> 00:14:33,130
that you know shouldn't it can't be

305
00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:35,350
argued with and after that everything is

306
00:14:41,130 --> 00:14:38,010
interpretation obviously we have our own

307
00:14:43,410 --> 00:14:41,140
but the important thing is keeping and

308
00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:43,420
everything back to the actual you know

309
00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:46,690
solid facts the archaeology the you know

310
00:14:52,470 --> 00:14:48,610
the textual scholarship and all that

311
00:14:55,020 --> 00:14:52,480
kind of thing so that's it you know in

312
00:14:59,820 --> 00:14:55,030
the end you just keep referring people

313
00:15:01,420 --> 00:14:59,830
back to that do you feel that after the

314
00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:01,430
publication of the

315
00:15:07,930 --> 00:15:04,850
temple revelation and of course The Da

316
00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:07,940
Vinci Code and Dan Brown that today

317
00:15:14,730 --> 00:15:10,970
almost the the way that pop culture or

318
00:15:20,250 --> 00:15:14,740
the world looks back at this it's now

319
00:15:23,230 --> 00:15:20,260
sort of transformed into a historical

320
00:15:26,199 --> 00:15:23,240
situation a historical document where

321
00:15:29,650 --> 00:15:26,209
these these ideas now are so cemented

322
00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:29,660
that they're they're accepted and an

323
00:15:35,139 --> 00:15:33,890
outside of Orthodox academia well I'm

324
00:15:38,650 --> 00:15:35,149
glad you brought that up because

325
00:15:40,150 --> 00:15:38,660
actually sometimes it's just a case of

326
00:15:43,060 --> 00:15:40,160
Clive and I looking at each other and

327
00:15:44,860 --> 00:15:43,070
going wow looking back because I mean

328
00:15:46,900 --> 00:15:44,870
actually it must be said an awful lot of

329
00:15:49,570 --> 00:15:46,910
people throughout the world you know

330
00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:49,580
have no idea who we are and no idea our

331
00:15:55,030 --> 00:15:51,890
part in the whole Dan Brown thing but

332
00:15:57,790 --> 00:15:55,040
actually because of us I mean it is true

333
00:16:00,910 --> 00:15:57,800
you know false modesty aside it is true

334
00:16:03,010 --> 00:16:00,920
that basically through us dan Brown

335
00:16:05,940 --> 00:16:03,020
certainly got the whole world almost

336
00:16:08,230 --> 00:16:05,950
talking about this huge global

337
00:16:09,910 --> 00:16:08,240
conversation about things like the

338
00:16:12,100 --> 00:16:09,920
gnostic gospels in the relationship

339
00:16:14,079 --> 00:16:12,110
between Jesus and Mary Magdalene which

340
00:16:16,390 --> 00:16:14,089
you know he was inspired to look at

341
00:16:19,390 --> 00:16:16,400
largely because of our book the Templar

342
00:16:21,340 --> 00:16:19,400
revelations so yes we we did you're

343
00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:21,350
quite right we we did have a part in

344
00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:23,690
getting this global conversation going

345
00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:27,010
which has indeed changed the world I I

346
00:16:36,070 --> 00:16:30,890
firmly believe that we're today not only

347
00:16:38,710 --> 00:16:36,080
are you to quoted but the the ideas that

348
00:16:41,079 --> 00:16:38,720
were presented are something that you

349
00:16:44,500 --> 00:16:41,089
know it's openly discussed today and it

350
00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:44,510
this wasn't the case in in in the 80s or

351
00:16:50,319 --> 00:16:48,050
the 70s or in the past or today we just

352
00:16:52,900 --> 00:16:50,329
accept it and we move forward I find

353
00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:52,910
that exciting absolutely yes and then

354
00:16:57,490 --> 00:16:54,290
and so do we and it's great to be part

355
00:17:00,639 --> 00:16:57,500
of that of course a movement there might

356
00:17:02,199 --> 00:17:00,649
not be the right word you know for

357
00:17:07,360 --> 00:17:02,209
example you know as Lynn was saying with

358
00:17:11,230 --> 00:17:07,370
the da Vinci Code before that book came

359
00:17:13,390 --> 00:17:11,240
about most people were not aware of the

360
00:17:15,329 --> 00:17:13,400
existence for example of the of the

361
00:17:21,309 --> 00:17:15,339
Gnostic Gospels

362
00:17:24,429 --> 00:17:21,319
which you know certainly exists and you

363
00:17:25,539 --> 00:17:24,439
know again one can interpret what what

364
00:17:28,449 --> 00:17:25,549
they say and come to different

365
00:17:30,730 --> 00:17:28,459
conclusions but the fact is that most

366
00:17:33,989 --> 00:17:30,740
people were actually unaware that these

367
00:17:36,820 --> 00:17:33,999
alternative Gospels these alternative

368
00:17:39,489 --> 00:17:36,830
texts about Jesus given a completely

369
00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:39,499
different picture even existed so when I

370
00:17:42,100 --> 00:17:40,730
said earlier that we keep trying to

371
00:17:45,340 --> 00:17:42,110
bring thing everything back to the to

372
00:17:47,379 --> 00:17:45,350
the facts you know that that's a classic

373
00:17:49,180 --> 00:17:47,389
examples of the very fact that so many

374
00:17:54,029 --> 00:17:49,190
people didn't know that these sources

375
00:17:56,710 --> 00:17:54,039
existed and have existed for 2,000 years

376
00:17:58,869 --> 00:17:56,720
tell you what one min does with it how

377
00:18:01,810 --> 00:17:58,879
own interpretation is another another

378
00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:01,820
question but the fact is that you know

379
00:18:06,789 --> 00:18:04,970
that that novel Dan Brown's novel

380
00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:06,799
brought that to a lot of people's

381
00:18:10,330 --> 00:18:08,450
attention and therefore did a great

382
00:18:12,759 --> 00:18:10,340
service to everyone and a wonderful

383
00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:12,769
irony that you know you would have

384
00:18:16,930 --> 00:18:14,690
predicted you know one would have

385
00:18:18,669 --> 00:18:16,940
predicted many many years ago if you

386
00:18:20,980 --> 00:18:18,679
know the world was going to change some

387
00:18:23,409 --> 00:18:20,990
great revelation it would obviously come

388
00:18:26,019 --> 00:18:23,419
through some academic book or some

389
00:18:28,509 --> 00:18:26,029
academic revelation and instead it came

390
00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:28,519
to an airport thriller yeah that's right

391
00:18:36,879 --> 00:18:33,850
that's right and going back to the very

392
00:18:41,230 --> 00:18:36,889
genesis of the Internet and I'm talking

393
00:18:44,310 --> 00:18:41,240
about 1995 I'm goofing around I'm doing

394
00:18:48,070 --> 00:18:44,320
research and I stumbled on at that time

395
00:18:51,759 --> 00:18:48,080
the only little tiny website on

396
00:18:54,340 --> 00:18:51,769
rennes-le-chateau yeah and and I'm going

397
00:18:57,159 --> 00:18:54,350
and I'm reading I'm like holy crap right

398
00:19:00,340 --> 00:18:57,169
okay what's what's going on here there

399
00:19:03,489 --> 00:19:00,350
was no other resources for that out

400
00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:03,499
there and and that led to one thing

401
00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:05,690
which led to another which led me to the

402
00:19:10,690 --> 00:19:08,330
Turin Shroud your book which eventually

403
00:19:14,139 --> 00:19:10,700
a couple of years later of course the

404
00:19:19,269 --> 00:19:14,149
temple a temple revelation comes out but

405
00:19:23,169 --> 00:19:19,279
it was those spider webs of research

406
00:19:24,669 --> 00:19:23,179
that all came off of rennes-le-chateau

407
00:19:27,490 --> 00:19:24,679
and for the rest of the world I'm

408
00:19:28,750 --> 00:19:27,500
talking about Mary Magdalene and of

409
00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:28,760
course Jesus

410
00:19:34,210 --> 00:19:32,090
in France and in Jerusalem and the

411
00:19:37,330 --> 00:19:34,220
Knights Templar and and everything else

412
00:19:39,700 --> 00:19:37,340
that was going on and that's that's what

413
00:19:41,230 --> 00:19:39,710
led me to you guys and the world

414
00:19:42,370 --> 00:19:41,240
wouldn't have known really about

415
00:19:45,130 --> 00:19:42,380
rennes-le-chateau

416
00:19:48,550 --> 00:19:45,140
and everything that came off of that the

417
00:19:50,350 --> 00:19:48,560
Sinclairs and Rosslyn Chapel all of

418
00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:50,360
these things tied themselves together

419
00:19:58,210 --> 00:19:56,210
didn't they they did and yeah well it's

420
00:20:00,400 --> 00:19:58,220
a subjective way for it written about as

421
00:20:03,220 --> 00:20:00,410
well in our books we don't claim to have

422
00:20:06,340 --> 00:20:03,230
solved the mystery but you know we think

423
00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:06,350
we've made some some headway with it but

424
00:20:11,070 --> 00:20:08,690
it's what we found consumed the same as

425
00:20:13,990 --> 00:20:11,080
you joining the kind of mid-nineties

426
00:20:17,230 --> 00:20:14,000
Lynne and I were getting very much

427
00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:17,240
interested in that whole mystery and it

428
00:20:22,360 --> 00:20:20,690
was just amazing when we interacted with

429
00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:22,370
other researchers you know whole

430
00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:24,490
community of people who like yourself

431
00:20:29,620 --> 00:20:27,290
had kind of stumbled across this and

432
00:20:31,900 --> 00:20:29,630
wanting to know more and we used to

433
00:20:36,010 --> 00:20:31,910
think just from that one tiny French

434
00:20:38,410 --> 00:20:36,020
village we and other people you know

435
00:20:40,710 --> 00:20:38,420
ended up researching things like you

436
00:20:44,620 --> 00:20:40,720
know the Kabbalah the Gnostic Gospels

437
00:20:47,260 --> 00:20:44,630
the Knights Templar the Cathars and then

438
00:20:50,140 --> 00:20:47,270
it spins out into things like alchemy

439
00:20:52,450 --> 00:20:50,150
and our chemical groups and strange you

440
00:20:55,390 --> 00:20:52,460
know secret societies and Masonic groups

441
00:20:59,380 --> 00:20:55,400
oh there's so many different subjects

442
00:21:01,180 --> 00:20:59,390
that we had to learn about if we didn't

443
00:21:03,460 --> 00:21:01,190
know about them already right I'm funny

444
00:21:06,460 --> 00:21:03,470
I'll find out more about all starting

445
00:21:08,530 --> 00:21:06,470
from just this one tiny village in order

446
00:21:09,790 --> 00:21:08,540
to try and make sense of it all and and

447
00:21:11,950 --> 00:21:09,800
some of those things actually turned out

448
00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:11,960
not to be totally relevant to that

449
00:21:16,990 --> 00:21:15,170
central mystery anyway but never it

450
00:21:19,120 --> 00:21:17,000
takes you on to another place you know

451
00:21:21,970 --> 00:21:19,130
did you find out more about things you

452
00:21:24,970 --> 00:21:21,980
find out whole world a whole history

453
00:21:29,230 --> 00:21:24,980
that you're not taught about in schools

454
00:21:32,980 --> 00:21:29,240
yeah and the breadcrumbs they're

455
00:21:35,020 --> 00:21:32,990
everywhere right one thing is leading to

456
00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:35,030
another and you only have so much time

457
00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:38,570
in the day so many yeah days a week how

458
00:21:45,830 --> 00:21:41,290
do you choose which which breadcrumb

459
00:21:49,050 --> 00:21:45,840
right well there's a certain amount of

460
00:21:52,860 --> 00:21:49,060
thickness and prints early research for

461
00:21:54,780 --> 00:21:52,870
every book begins in the pub obviously

462
00:21:57,960 --> 00:21:54,790
obviously you know we're Brits that's

463
00:22:00,120 --> 00:21:57,970
what happens there and yeah but you know

464
00:22:02,220 --> 00:22:00,130
we but we you know we'd sit there and

465
00:22:05,850 --> 00:22:02,230
sit there and just talk and freewheel

466
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:05,860
and but of course at this stage in in in

467
00:22:11,700 --> 00:22:08,410
our career we know we've got background

468
00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:11,710
of quite a lot of books as you know and

469
00:22:16,650 --> 00:22:14,530
so one book tends to grow out of the

470
00:22:18,750 --> 00:22:16,660
past book and which grew out a book

471
00:22:22,290 --> 00:22:18,760
before that so it's a kind of organic

472
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:22,300
process and as you say the you know the

473
00:22:25,740 --> 00:22:24,010
bread crumbs I mean it's a question of

474
00:22:27,990 --> 00:22:25,750
sweeping them all up and looking at the

475
00:22:32,220 --> 00:22:28,000
pattern that they make really I can only

476
00:22:35,100 --> 00:22:32,230
imagine because it when when you look at

477
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:35,110
just as Clive just pointed out to that

478
00:22:41,370 --> 00:22:37,570
little village right in France and with

479
00:22:43,380 --> 00:22:41,380
rennes-le-chateau and what came out of

480
00:22:46,410 --> 00:22:43,390
it and off of it and around it

481
00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:46,420
throughout history this wasn't just

482
00:22:52,980 --> 00:22:50,290
something modern a 20th century yeah

483
00:22:59,100 --> 00:22:52,990
yeah and it is the whole kind of hidden

484
00:23:01,620 --> 00:22:59,110
history it's only because it's the the

485
00:23:04,890 --> 00:23:01,630
kind of subjects that aren't really

486
00:23:06,420 --> 00:23:04,900
deemed suitable for study in schools

487
00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:06,430
because the history you learn at school

488
00:23:12,180 --> 00:23:09,370
was all about you know kings and battles

489
00:23:14,490 --> 00:23:12,190
and things you don't hear too much about

490
00:23:16,950 --> 00:23:14,500
history of ideas and a lot of this

491
00:23:18,900 --> 00:23:16,960
actually comes back to you know

492
00:23:23,190 --> 00:23:18,910
alternative philosophies alternative

493
00:23:26,490 --> 00:23:23,200
ways of looking at life and it's not

494
00:23:29,460 --> 00:23:26,500
what it's not what we talked about just

495
00:23:32,010 --> 00:23:29,470
to give you an example when I was back

496
00:23:34,770 --> 00:23:32,020
at school doing history which was one of

497
00:23:36,360 --> 00:23:34,780
my favorite subjects they the period we

498
00:23:41,660 --> 00:23:36,370
were doing towards the kind of final

499
00:23:46,890 --> 00:23:41,670
exams was exactly the period of history

500
00:23:50,279 --> 00:23:46,900
that was to do with the Crusades you

501
00:23:52,659 --> 00:23:50,289
know sort of the late medieval period

502
00:23:55,389 --> 00:23:52,669
which are fascinating but I was learning

503
00:23:59,139 --> 00:23:55,399
about kings and queens and battles and

504
00:24:01,359 --> 00:23:59,149
bishops two words that I never heard in

505
00:24:03,219 --> 00:24:01,369
the entire sort of school curriculum of

506
00:24:05,529 --> 00:24:03,229
that period I never heard the word

507
00:24:08,529 --> 00:24:05,539
Templar and I never heard the word

508
00:24:10,959 --> 00:24:08,539
Cathal which of course are those two

509
00:24:13,469 --> 00:24:10,969
extremely important things happening in

510
00:24:16,059 --> 00:24:13,479
Europe at that period the other thing

511
00:24:18,159 --> 00:24:16,069
it's like later on when you start to

512
00:24:20,709 --> 00:24:18,169
learn about these things mainly from you

513
00:24:22,299 --> 00:24:20,719
know alternative history books and you

514
00:24:23,709 --> 00:24:22,309
suddenly come across you know you

515
00:24:25,809 --> 00:24:23,719
suddenly learn about how important the

516
00:24:27,489 --> 00:24:25,819
Knights Templar were just historically

517
00:24:29,769 --> 00:24:27,499
without going into any of the kind of

518
00:24:31,959 --> 00:24:29,779
weird stuff about them which is there

519
00:24:34,149 --> 00:24:31,969
but suddenly you think why is no one

520
00:24:36,429 --> 00:24:34,159
told me about this before and you begin

521
00:24:38,049 --> 00:24:36,439
to think it looks like a cover-up well

522
00:24:40,959 --> 00:24:38,059
no I think it's it's probably it's just

523
00:24:42,579 --> 00:24:40,969
you know the academic mind all the

524
00:24:44,709 --> 00:24:42,589
people that set school curriculums just

525
00:24:45,999 --> 00:24:44,719
don't think in that way but it looks

526
00:24:47,829 --> 00:24:46,009
like that and then you come across the

527
00:24:50,289 --> 00:24:47,839
Cathars you think why didn't nobody ever

528
00:24:53,979 --> 00:24:50,299
tell me about them and suddenly a new

529
00:24:56,169 --> 00:24:53,989
whole new a whole new history a real

530
00:24:59,019 --> 00:24:56,179
history but one day never really taught

531
00:25:01,749 --> 00:24:59,029
opens up mind you when I when I did

532
00:25:04,809 --> 00:25:01,759
history at school that was so long ago I

533
00:25:07,269 --> 00:25:04,819
can barely remember it so you know but

534
00:25:11,079 --> 00:25:07,279
I'm sure I mean I'm sure it was it was

535
00:25:15,389 --> 00:25:11,089
exactly as ty said very similar and with

536
00:25:18,939 --> 00:25:15,399
this with when God had a wife because of

537
00:25:21,629 --> 00:25:18,949
the the Jesus and Mary

538
00:25:25,059 --> 00:25:21,639
research and the way that the the public

539
00:25:27,939 --> 00:25:25,069
now is very familiar with that subject

540
00:25:31,299 --> 00:25:27,949
did that allow did that make this book

541
00:25:35,139 --> 00:25:31,309
easier to write because this but this is

542
00:25:37,419 --> 00:25:35,149
gonna ruffle some feathers mm-hmm yes I

543
00:25:39,429 --> 00:25:37,429
suppose it might certain bits towards

544
00:25:41,619 --> 00:25:39,439
the end of the book either cuz we didn't

545
00:25:43,779 --> 00:25:41,629
have to explain so much about right

546
00:25:45,339 --> 00:25:43,789
right I'm a Mac Mary Magdalene and the

547
00:25:47,109 --> 00:25:45,349
questions around them yeah we could we

548
00:25:49,929 --> 00:25:47,119
could assume that most readers know a

549
00:25:52,469 --> 00:25:49,939
fair bit about that so it's saved us

550
00:25:55,089 --> 00:25:52,479
words it saved us making the book longer

551
00:25:58,929 --> 00:25:55,099
but what we've done in this book is

552
00:26:00,579 --> 00:25:58,939
actually go back into the backstory of

553
00:26:03,730 --> 00:26:00,589
Jesus and Mary Magdalene if you like

554
00:26:07,260 --> 00:26:03,740
it's something that we've we've steadily

555
00:26:09,549 --> 00:26:07,270
again with tempt revelation back in 1997

556
00:26:11,970 --> 00:26:09,559
it went through another book of ours

557
00:26:17,190 --> 00:26:11,980
called the mask of Christ which came out

558
00:26:20,590 --> 00:26:17,200
2008 and then both of which dealt with

559
00:26:22,779 --> 00:26:20,600
questions about Jesus and what he was

560
00:26:25,269 --> 00:26:22,789
about and what the connection with Mary

561
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:25,279
Magdalene was and we kind of hinted at

562
00:26:29,889 --> 00:26:27,770
some things of of where they drew their

563
00:26:32,289 --> 00:26:29,899
ideas from what they were part of and

564
00:26:33,159 --> 00:26:32,299
then carrying on that research we

565
00:26:36,730 --> 00:26:33,169
actually kind of found the whole

566
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:36,740
backstory in the you know the religion

567
00:26:41,470 --> 00:26:40,010
of the Israelites and that's when the

568
00:26:44,049 --> 00:26:41,480
this book came together that we could

569
00:26:48,730 --> 00:26:44,059
tell this whole history essentially from

570
00:26:50,350 --> 00:26:48,740
Moses so to Jesus but it just added a

571
00:26:52,149 --> 00:26:50,360
whole other dimension to things that we

572
00:26:53,889 --> 00:26:52,159
had written about before made much more

573
00:26:55,210 --> 00:26:53,899
sense of some of the things that we've

574
00:26:59,260 --> 00:26:55,220
grappled with and there was earlier

575
00:27:02,230 --> 00:26:59,270
books sorry yeah I was gonna ask a

576
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:02,240
question of you Lynn as we're heading

577
00:27:07,830 --> 00:27:04,490
into the break and I so rudely

578
00:27:13,180 --> 00:27:07,840
interrupted you but as so as a woman

579
00:27:15,990 --> 00:27:13,190
writing this book was this your idea did

580
00:27:19,060 --> 00:27:16,000
you present this to choir

581
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:19,070
it's always my idea always my idea to

582
00:27:22,690 --> 00:27:21,890
write about Mary Magdalene she's one of

583
00:27:24,820 --> 00:27:22,700
my favorites

584
00:27:27,010 --> 00:27:24,830
and I have written a book myself about

585
00:27:30,370 --> 00:27:27,020
Mary Magdalene called Mary Magdalene

586
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:30,380
Christianity's hidden goddess I mean you

587
00:27:37,450 --> 00:27:34,490
can't stop me basically so Clive when

588
00:27:43,590 --> 00:27:37,460
the the book idea had started to present

589
00:27:47,580 --> 00:27:43,600
itself as a man were you surprised at

590
00:27:51,970 --> 00:27:47,590
the way that academia was handling this

591
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:51,980
over the years absolutely absolutely

592
00:27:58,210 --> 00:27:56,210
because you know that's as we started to

593
00:28:00,899 --> 00:27:58,220
look at the the hard evidence the

594
00:28:04,930 --> 00:28:00,909
academic evidence the archaeology mainly

595
00:28:08,289 --> 00:28:04,940
for the existence of a goddess tradition

596
00:28:10,340 --> 00:28:08,299
within the Hebrew religion that carries

597
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:10,350
through into Christianity

598
00:28:17,390 --> 00:28:14,010
and how so little of that Headley got

599
00:28:21,500 --> 00:28:17,400
out to the the general public it was a

600
00:28:25,490 --> 00:28:21,510
surprise because it's not you know it's

601
00:28:27,470 --> 00:28:25,500
it's it's so solidly there you think why

602
00:28:30,350 --> 00:28:27,480
don't you know why do these things not

603
00:28:32,510 --> 00:28:30,360
make the news while evidence they

604
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:32,520
discover a new tomb in Egypt there may

605
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:34,410
be something about it on the news they

606
00:28:40,370 --> 00:28:37,770
discover an inscription in Israel - you

607
00:28:44,050 --> 00:28:40,380
know - the God Yahweh and his wife

608
00:28:47,450 --> 00:28:44,060
Asherah which has such profound

609
00:28:51,500 --> 00:28:47,460
implications and it just it ends up in a

610
00:28:54,260 --> 00:28:51,510
pretty obscure academic journal mean and

611
00:28:55,970 --> 00:28:54,270
I'm going to safely say this because of

612
00:28:57,800 --> 00:28:55,980
the way that this deals with you know

613
00:29:01,070 --> 00:28:57,810
we're dealing with the feminine the

614
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:01,080
masculine here male and female and and

615
00:29:10,430 --> 00:29:05,970
as a man I that the suppression happened

616
00:29:12,590 --> 00:29:10,440
because of us of us men and and reading

617
00:29:15,740 --> 00:29:12,600
the book and I could not stop reading it

618
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:15,750
I was almost embarrassed for a you know

619
00:29:21,260 --> 00:29:17,610
for for the way that it has been

620
00:29:24,770 --> 00:29:21,270
suppressed and and I found myself saying

621
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:24,780
over and over again why why is this not

622
00:29:29,710 --> 00:29:27,570
being discussed well the reasons are

623
00:29:33,140 --> 00:29:29,720
obvious and we'll talk about it after

624
00:29:37,660 --> 00:29:33,150
but for both of you as quickly as we can

625
00:29:40,700 --> 00:29:37,670
before the break why this oppression oh

626
00:29:44,090 --> 00:29:40,710
it's it's a it's a big question in fact

627
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:44,100
something that we've been discussing

628
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:45,690
amongst ourselves a lot over the time

629
00:29:51,260 --> 00:29:47,490
clear it's very easy to show the

630
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:51,270
suppression happening but you still do

631
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:53,130
end up with this question of why you

632
00:29:59,150 --> 00:29:56,610
know we often get into a thing of yeah

633
00:30:02,480 --> 00:29:59,160
you know is it because of just basic

634
00:30:07,220 --> 00:30:02,490
misogyny on the part of men right or is

635
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:07,230
is misogyny a cause sorry a consequence

636
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:08,970
of having written the feminine out of

637
00:30:12,140 --> 00:30:09,570
religion

638
00:30:14,330 --> 00:30:12,150
so which came first and it's it's

639
00:30:16,730 --> 00:30:14,340
sometimes hard to tell but after the

640
00:30:19,010 --> 00:30:16,740
break we can talk about what we think

641
00:30:21,020 --> 00:30:19,020
happened and why this happened but it's

642
00:30:23,060 --> 00:30:21,030
you know it's very easy to show that it

643
00:30:23,780 --> 00:30:23,070
did happen when you start looking at the

644
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:23,790
mode

645
00:30:28,610 --> 00:30:25,530
because if the damage actually does to

646
00:30:30,860 --> 00:30:28,620
the male psyche you want you know you

647
00:30:33,860 --> 00:30:30,870
wonder why men wanted it to happen then

648
00:30:35,630 --> 00:30:33,870
that's exactly my point and I found

649
00:30:39,050 --> 00:30:35,640
myself asking that fundamental question

650
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:39,060
over and over again and and I think what

651
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:42,330
is most important here is the facts are

652
00:30:47,330 --> 00:30:44,490
the facts right the book is black and

653
00:30:49,790 --> 00:30:47,340
white and very pragmatic that you can

654
00:30:52,430 --> 00:30:49,800
read that part of it but we have to get

655
00:30:54,380 --> 00:30:52,440
to the fundamental question of why and

656
00:30:55,730 --> 00:30:54,390
we'll discuss all of that after the

657
00:30:58,130 --> 00:30:55,740
break let's take our break right here

658
00:30:59,960 --> 00:30:58,140
this is fade to black I am your host

659
00:31:02,210 --> 00:30:59,970
Jimmy Church our guests tonight are Lynn

660
00:31:04,070 --> 00:31:02,220
pic net and Clive Prince we're

661
00:31:07,100 --> 00:31:04,080
discussing their new book I'm holding it

662
00:31:10,190 --> 00:31:07,110
up to the cameras right now when God had

663
00:31:12,740 --> 00:31:10,200
a wife tonight on the GameChanger

664
00:31:14,780 --> 00:31:12,750
Network and Katie RA the planet this is

665
00:31:16,510 --> 00:31:14,790
fade to black we'll be right back after

666
00:31:29,770 --> 00:31:16,520
this short break stay with us

667
00:31:38,310 --> 00:31:36,120
[Music]

668
00:31:39,890 --> 00:31:38,320
all right welcome back fade to black I'm

669
00:31:43,590 --> 00:31:39,900
real shimmy Church our guest tonight

670
00:31:46,380 --> 00:31:43,600
Lynn picnic and plied prints discussing

671
00:31:48,419 --> 00:31:46,390
their book when God had a wife and we're

672
00:31:53,610 --> 00:31:48,429
gonna get straight to it right now

673
00:31:56,490 --> 00:31:53,620
and the all roads lead to Egypt

674
00:31:58,980 --> 00:31:56,500
Oh roads lead to Egypt to seem to do

675
00:32:02,460 --> 00:31:58,990
that and and we're gonna actually start

676
00:32:04,980 --> 00:32:02,470
there and before we do I'm gonna ask

677
00:32:06,570 --> 00:32:04,990
both of you the same question and I'm

678
00:32:12,270 --> 00:32:06,580
wondering if you're gonna give me the

679
00:32:20,210 --> 00:32:12,280
same answer is the Bible a historical

680
00:32:26,250 --> 00:32:20,220
document Clive you first good question

681
00:32:29,370 --> 00:32:26,260
no I would say no it's a document that

682
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:29,380
is based on history but it's history

683
00:32:34,649 --> 00:32:33,010
that's been interpreted now actually you

684
00:32:36,779 --> 00:32:34,659
could probably say that about anything

685
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:36,789
at any aspect of history because as soon

686
00:32:42,390 --> 00:32:40,330
as you write it you change it but the

687
00:32:46,350 --> 00:32:42,400
the the crucial thing to understand

688
00:32:50,970 --> 00:32:46,360
about the Hebrew Bible the Old Testament

689
00:32:53,580 --> 00:32:50,980
is that although it's based on sources

690
00:32:56,279 --> 00:32:53,590
that go way way back it was actually put

691
00:32:58,260 --> 00:32:56,289
together quite late one of the quite lay

692
00:33:02,070 --> 00:32:58,270
I'm talking about so the middle it's

693
00:33:05,039 --> 00:33:02,080
around about 450 BC where was a good

694
00:33:08,700 --> 00:33:05,049
things like say the Exodus happened

695
00:33:10,350 --> 00:33:08,710
yeah bout 800 years before that so you

696
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:10,360
got all these information these these

697
00:33:17,130 --> 00:33:12,450
the the sources that were passed down

698
00:33:22,110 --> 00:33:17,140
but there was a big effort in in

699
00:33:24,450 --> 00:33:22,120
Jerusalem to around 450 BC to actually

700
00:33:27,750 --> 00:33:24,460
codify the religion and the beliefs

701
00:33:30,090 --> 00:33:27,760
which also meant putting together the

702
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:30,100
historical narrative because the two

703
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:31,330
things are very closely intertwined

704
00:33:36,510 --> 00:33:34,210
about how you know Moses revelation with

705
00:33:39,250 --> 00:33:36,520
the burning bush and you know that the

706
00:33:43,210 --> 00:33:39,260
whole story that comes on from there

707
00:33:47,010 --> 00:33:43,220
now bits and pieces of the the Hebrew

708
00:33:49,390 --> 00:33:47,020
Bible have been passed down pretty

709
00:33:53,050 --> 00:33:49,400
faithfully and it's mainly the bits that

710
00:33:55,300 --> 00:33:53,060
are called the songs so when you come

711
00:33:59,620 --> 00:33:55,310
across these songs they're inserted into

712
00:34:04,930 --> 00:33:59,630
the story which which often actually

713
00:34:06,940 --> 00:34:04,940
have a slightly contradictory element to

714
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:06,950
them to up the actual the narrative part

715
00:34:11,860 --> 00:34:09,770
the story says that you can take them a

716
00:34:14,470 --> 00:34:11,870
bit more seriously but a lot of it was

717
00:34:16,810 --> 00:34:14,480
quite blatantly rewritten around that

718
00:34:18,940 --> 00:34:16,820
time it was actually at this point that

719
00:34:22,990 --> 00:34:18,950
rewriting around you know the the middle

720
00:34:26,350 --> 00:34:23,000
of the fifth century BC that's when the

721
00:34:30,100 --> 00:34:26,360
Sacred Feminine was was written out and

722
00:34:31,630 --> 00:34:30,110
it was it was as late as that though and

723
00:34:33,490 --> 00:34:31,640
it's like all these things when people

724
00:34:39,130 --> 00:34:33,500
write history of history is written by

725
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:39,140
the victors as we know they arranged the

726
00:34:44,050 --> 00:34:41,690
Sacred Feminine from the religion at

727
00:34:46,090 --> 00:34:44,060
that point and then they rewrote the

728
00:34:48,850 --> 00:34:46,100
history to pretend it had never been

729
00:34:52,540 --> 00:34:48,860
there and what's been reconstructed from

730
00:34:55,180 --> 00:34:52,550
archaeology and and other other

731
00:34:59,740 --> 00:34:55,190
scholarly work is to show actually until

732
00:35:06,070 --> 00:34:59,750
that stage that there was a goddess in

733
00:35:09,190 --> 00:35:06,080
that religion a consort of the God what

734
00:35:11,650 --> 00:35:09,200
I would say it very annoyingly in answer

735
00:35:13,870 --> 00:35:11,660
to your question whether the Bible is a

736
00:35:15,430 --> 00:35:13,880
historical record I would have said it

737
00:35:18,490 --> 00:35:15,440
isn't it isn't but it was pretty much

738
00:35:22,270 --> 00:35:18,500
what Clive said I mean yes we do have to

739
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:22,280
bear in mind that take as long as we for

740
00:35:28,240 --> 00:35:24,770
the sake of argument remove the idea

741
00:35:30,190 --> 00:35:28,250
that it was somehow written by God what

742
00:35:31,930 --> 00:35:30,200
you're left with is a historical

743
00:35:36,190 --> 00:35:31,940
document that is open to interpretation

744
00:35:37,810 --> 00:35:36,200
just like any other and basically bear

745
00:35:41,230 --> 00:35:37,820
in mind as I've said that history is

746
00:35:43,540 --> 00:35:41,240
written by the victors and and they can

747
00:35:45,430 --> 00:35:43,550
present what they like to people and

748
00:35:47,650 --> 00:35:45,440
let's not forget that people in those

749
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:47,660
days most of them couldn't read or write

750
00:35:52,750 --> 00:35:51,530
so when they're given some document they

751
00:35:54,930 --> 00:35:52,760
would tend to be all

752
00:35:57,640 --> 00:35:54,940
struck by it and think it must be true

753
00:36:00,510 --> 00:35:57,650
and also that there was a tendency to

754
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:00,520
exaggerate enormous ly you know people

755
00:36:04,180 --> 00:36:02,450
historians now saying well you know

756
00:36:06,820 --> 00:36:04,190
certain things just didn't happen the

757
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:06,830
exodus didn't happen you know you know

758
00:36:11,470 --> 00:36:08,450
Solomon's Temple didn't happen even

759
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:11,480
Solomon didn't happen but actually this

760
00:36:17,020 --> 00:36:13,850
is probably just simply exaggeration

761
00:36:19,630 --> 00:36:17,030
Solomon's Temple was there but it was

762
00:36:23,500 --> 00:36:19,640
much smaller and much less grand than we

763
00:36:27,730 --> 00:36:23,510
are led to believe so basically yes some

764
00:36:30,010 --> 00:36:27,740
of the of the Bible is historical

765
00:36:35,470 --> 00:36:30,020
but it's overlaid with layers and layers

766
00:36:39,220 --> 00:36:35,480
of hype basically and you guys present

767
00:36:45,930 --> 00:36:39,230
that position I in that I feel that you

768
00:36:52,420 --> 00:36:49,330
you remain objective because just like

769
00:36:54,850 --> 00:36:52,430
you just pointed out when there when

770
00:36:58,330 --> 00:36:54,860
you're talking about Solomon Solomon's

771
00:37:01,420 --> 00:36:58,340
Temple and David in that period clearly

772
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:01,430
referenced in the Bible but all of the

773
00:37:06,220 --> 00:37:04,370
civilizations around Israel at that time

774
00:37:09,790 --> 00:37:06,230
they don't make any reference to it at

775
00:37:11,770 --> 00:37:09,800
all exactly yeah yeah I which is what

776
00:37:14,410 --> 00:37:11,780
leads some you know there is a whole

777
00:37:17,140 --> 00:37:14,420
strand within biblical scholarship

778
00:37:18,820 --> 00:37:17,150
people called biblical minimalists is

779
00:37:22,620 --> 00:37:18,830
what they been given to them who

780
00:37:25,240 --> 00:37:22,630
basically deny if there's no evidence

781
00:37:27,610 --> 00:37:25,250
independent evidence for something that

782
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:27,620
happened in the Bible then it didn't

783
00:37:32,020 --> 00:37:30,130
happen so it's a very it's almost a

784
00:37:33,790 --> 00:37:32,030
fundamentalist position from the

785
00:37:35,380 --> 00:37:33,800
opposite point of view you know if we

786
00:37:37,420 --> 00:37:35,390
can't prove it happened and we're going

787
00:37:41,170 --> 00:37:37,430
to assume it didn't and what we found

788
00:37:43,270 --> 00:37:41,180
when we looked into this is that no

789
00:37:46,270 --> 00:37:43,280
these things did happen as Lynn said

790
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:46,280
just on a smaller scale than we're led

791
00:37:50,350 --> 00:37:48,290
to believe from those texts for an

792
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:50,360
example I think when that when the Bible

793
00:37:56,110 --> 00:37:52,610
talks about the exodus from Egypt it

794
00:37:57,940 --> 00:37:56,120
said it was 600,000 men and their wives

795
00:38:01,050 --> 00:37:57,950
and children which is a couple of

796
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:01,060
million people suddenly leaving Egypt

797
00:38:05,830 --> 00:38:04,010
now people have looked at and said that

798
00:38:06,670 --> 00:38:05,840
is just impossible that many people

799
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:06,680
leave Egypt would

800
00:38:11,860 --> 00:38:09,170
left a big mark on history because that

801
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:11,870
big mark isn't there it didn't happen

802
00:38:15,910 --> 00:38:14,330
but when you looking from other point of

803
00:38:19,060 --> 00:38:15,920
view you say as it did happen

804
00:38:21,430 --> 00:38:19,070
it's just that number of 600,000 is they

805
00:38:22,690 --> 00:38:21,440
just exaggerated it when these stories

806
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:22,700
were written down many centuries later

807
00:38:28,330 --> 00:38:24,890
it did happen but on a much smaller

808
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:28,340
scale and then you know the archeology

809
00:38:35,470 --> 00:38:32,290
does fit that on a much smaller scale so

810
00:38:37,810 --> 00:38:35,480
well actually let me jump in because I

811
00:38:41,020 --> 00:38:37,820
don't want this thought to get away from

812
00:38:44,170 --> 00:38:41,030
me I wanted to ask you this specifically

813
00:38:48,330 --> 00:38:44,180
about biblical minimalist in that did

814
00:38:51,430 --> 00:38:48,340
you ever consider yourselves biblical

815
00:38:56,020 --> 00:38:51,440
minimalist at one point and did that

816
00:38:58,690 --> 00:38:56,030
change for you I don't think we ever did

817
00:39:01,210 --> 00:38:58,700
I think we were just assumed there was

818
00:39:04,090 --> 00:39:01,220
some core of historical truth yeah when

819
00:39:06,190 --> 00:39:04,100
we first came into the subject I just

820
00:39:09,580 --> 00:39:06,200
assumed there was a core of historical

821
00:39:11,350 --> 00:39:09,590
truths and went looking for it and it

822
00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:11,360
was quite a while into that you actually

823
00:39:17,230 --> 00:39:13,370
came across this very extreme position

824
00:39:19,690 --> 00:39:17,240
of the biblical minimalists I mean you

825
00:39:21,220 --> 00:39:19,700
look at anything well let's try this out

826
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:21,230
have they got a point let's look at

827
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:24,410
their right but it didn't take long to

828
00:39:28,450 --> 00:39:26,330
actually think no actually that they

829
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:28,460
just become you know that they're almost

830
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:31,370
too legalistic they're like lawyers you

831
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:32,810
know if you can't prove it happened it

832
00:39:37,750 --> 00:39:35,930
didn't and we sold it no it's too simple

833
00:39:39,850 --> 00:39:37,760
and approach to history I mean history

834
00:39:42,100 --> 00:39:39,860
is more complicated than that but but

835
00:39:45,820 --> 00:39:42,110
you know there is a moment when you you

836
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:45,830
know when you discover that the the lack

837
00:39:49,720 --> 00:39:46,850
of evidence

838
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:49,730
where you think what what's going on I

839
00:39:54,070 --> 00:39:51,410
mean many many years ago before I met

840
00:39:57,250 --> 00:39:54,080
Clive before I got on this path I went

841
00:39:59,530 --> 00:39:57,260
to the British Museum and in my naivety

842
00:40:02,440 --> 00:39:59,540
I asked one of the attendants you know

843
00:40:04,390 --> 00:40:02,450
where were they the stuff was that where

844
00:40:06,610 --> 00:40:04,400
the exhibits were for that you know the

845
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:06,620
the Israelites in Egypt and he looked

846
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:08,810
pretty at me and said there isn't any

847
00:40:14,350 --> 00:40:11,690
you know and and you know it was like my

848
00:40:16,690 --> 00:40:14,360
I thought what you know what's going on

849
00:40:17,620 --> 00:40:16,700
here you know I mean I didn't know that

850
00:40:19,539 --> 00:40:17,630
there was

851
00:40:21,940 --> 00:40:19,549
just absolutely nil evidence in that

852
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:21,950
sentence at least in those days I mean

853
00:40:26,499 --> 00:40:24,410
talk about many years ago now so that

854
00:40:29,829 --> 00:40:26,509
was a bit of a shock to me so basically

855
00:40:31,390 --> 00:40:29,839
you have to start really forensic

856
00:40:33,130 --> 00:40:31,400
cleaned up as Clive said forensically

857
00:40:35,140 --> 00:40:33,140
looking at the evidence sifting it which

858
00:40:38,349 --> 00:40:35,150
is what we like to think we do in every

859
00:40:41,950 --> 00:40:38,359
case and and then we come to the the

860
00:40:45,220 --> 00:40:41,960
very fundamental aspect of it all which

861
00:40:47,999 --> 00:40:45,230
is we have been and I include myself in

862
00:40:54,190 --> 00:40:48,009
that we we have been led to believe that

863
00:40:58,539 --> 00:40:54,200
God was independent even he was doing

864
00:41:01,089 --> 00:40:58,549
his own thing and that and when we start

865
00:41:03,670 --> 00:41:01,099
talking about this aspect of you know

866
00:41:05,589 --> 00:41:03,680
did God have a wife was he you know did

867
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:05,599
he have somebody that was standing by

868
00:41:13,230 --> 00:41:08,930
his side but was there something that no

869
00:41:18,249 --> 00:41:13,240
that's without question that that is

870
00:41:20,650 --> 00:41:18,259
that is the dogma today isn't it yeah it

871
00:41:25,269 --> 00:41:20,660
is and that is really I think the big

872
00:41:29,319 --> 00:41:25,279
thing for us the big perhaps in its way

873
00:41:31,720 --> 00:41:29,329
the most shocking revelation is to

874
00:41:34,569 --> 00:41:31,730
realize that you know we've always been

875
00:41:37,660 --> 00:41:34,579
brought up to believe that the whole

876
00:41:41,789 --> 00:41:37,670
Bible story from you know from beginning

877
00:41:44,650 --> 00:41:41,799
to end old testament and new is about

878
00:41:49,410 --> 00:41:44,660
monotheism people that worshiped and

879
00:41:56,019 --> 00:41:49,420
believed in just one God one male God

880
00:41:57,450 --> 00:41:56,029
but this is actually not true and when I

881
00:42:00,039 --> 00:41:57,460
was talking earlier about this

882
00:42:03,789 --> 00:42:00,049
reinvention that the codifying of a

883
00:42:08,109 --> 00:42:03,799
religion in the fifth century BC it's

884
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:08,119
not until that point that the Israelites

885
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:12,490
the Hebrews actually became mana theists

886
00:42:20,079 --> 00:42:16,970
they the the the Israelites of say Moses

887
00:42:22,720 --> 00:42:20,089
time from Solomon's time of all that

888
00:42:26,289 --> 00:42:22,730
period despite what the Hebrew Bible

889
00:42:28,569 --> 00:42:26,299
says it's now known absolutely we're not

890
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:28,579
monotheists they were what's called mono

891
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:31,130
letters which is a distinct

892
00:42:37,060 --> 00:42:33,770
milometer Molalla tree is where you

893
00:42:38,770 --> 00:42:37,070
worship one particular God while still

894
00:42:40,630 --> 00:42:38,780
acknowledging the existence of others

895
00:42:46,030 --> 00:42:40,640
and it's in is normally your tribal God

896
00:42:49,690 --> 00:42:46,040
and this is just known amount in

897
00:42:52,570 --> 00:42:49,700
academia as a fact and the strange thing

898
00:42:53,710 --> 00:42:52,580
is that even the historical books of the

899
00:42:56,740 --> 00:42:53,720
Hebrew Bible

900
00:43:01,600 --> 00:42:56,750
don't pretend otherwise they don't talk

901
00:43:03,820 --> 00:43:01,610
about God as being the only God they

902
00:43:05,530 --> 00:43:03,830
just talk about being the one that the

903
00:43:07,420 --> 00:43:05,540
people of Israel have pledged themselves

904
00:43:10,390 --> 00:43:07,430
to worship there are phrases in the

905
00:43:12,430 --> 00:43:10,400
Bible like never where people say hear

906
00:43:16,630 --> 00:43:12,440
people praising God's sake who among the

907
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:16,640
gods is like you O Lord and other gods

908
00:43:19,900 --> 00:43:18,530
are mentioned throughout the Bible and

909
00:43:23,020 --> 00:43:19,910
it's not really until you get to a

910
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:23,030
fairly late period that you actually get

911
00:43:26,710 --> 00:43:24,770
the statement that you know there is

912
00:43:28,900 --> 00:43:26,720
only one God in the earlier book you

913
00:43:31,030 --> 00:43:28,910
know the first commandment for example

914
00:43:33,100 --> 00:43:31,040
you usually have no other God before me

915
00:43:36,340 --> 00:43:33,110
it doesn't say there aren't any other

916
00:43:40,660 --> 00:43:36,350
gods and that in some ways that's the

917
00:43:42,849 --> 00:43:40,670
big kind of psychological breakthrough

918
00:43:45,220 --> 00:43:42,859
that we've made during their things it

919
00:43:47,950 --> 00:43:45,230
takes a hell of a lot of big condition

920
00:43:50,290 --> 00:43:47,960
so much and for so long to believe this

921
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:50,300
monolith you story it takes actually a

922
00:43:56,020 --> 00:43:52,850
big effort of will to break through it

923
00:43:58,210 --> 00:43:56,030
does and I mean there are some rewrites

924
00:44:00,790 --> 00:43:58,220
not just reinterpretations but rewrites

925
00:44:02,940 --> 00:44:00,800
and deliberately so to prevent us

926
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:02,950
knowing this in a way I mean for example

927
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:05,810
originally there was the phrase the sons

928
00:44:10,660 --> 00:44:08,090
of God you know that like an assembly

929
00:44:13,810 --> 00:44:10,670
almost like a Star Wars type of sim

930
00:44:17,260 --> 00:44:13,820
assembly you know and which became

931
00:44:19,240 --> 00:44:17,270
actually angels you know so entirely

932
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:19,250
different set up entirely different

933
00:44:25,420 --> 00:44:22,010
understanding but originally they were

934
00:44:27,430 --> 00:44:25,430
the sons of God and also does you know

935
00:44:29,950 --> 00:44:27,440
the plural gods right at the beginning

936
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:29,960
it's you know and the gods created you

937
00:44:36,940 --> 00:44:33,050
know not God and the gods plural created

938
00:44:42,370 --> 00:44:36,950
and not all of those divine beings were

939
00:44:44,460 --> 00:44:42,380
male and going back to where we started

940
00:44:47,970 --> 00:44:44,470
this is a great setup for that

941
00:44:51,240 --> 00:44:47,980
that all roads lead back to Egypt Egypt

942
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:51,250
and as certainly with the demigods and

943
00:44:58,650 --> 00:44:53,770
going back to the prehistory of each of

944
00:45:01,859 --> 00:44:58,660
the pre Pharaoh ages Egyptians didn't

945
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:01,869
have any issues with the strong feminine

946
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:05,050
presence in fact it was it was half of

947
00:45:12,780 --> 00:45:09,010
everything that that that their culture

948
00:45:15,240 --> 00:45:12,790
was based on wasn't it yes I mean I

949
00:45:18,089 --> 00:45:15,250
think all ancient cultures but it's very

950
00:45:21,210 --> 00:45:18,099
noticeable in Egypt that it has this

951
00:45:23,490 --> 00:45:21,220
balance between male deities and female

952
00:45:25,620 --> 00:45:23,500
deities not to say that these cultures

953
00:45:28,099 --> 00:45:25,630
weren't patriarchal Egypt certainly was

954
00:45:34,380 --> 00:45:28,109
but nevertheless they still have this

955
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:34,390
you know reverence for the female the

956
00:45:39,690 --> 00:45:37,930
Sacred Feminine no it's just the

957
00:45:41,099 --> 00:45:39,700
recognition you know in a way you can't

958
00:45:44,849 --> 00:45:41,109
have a family without a mother and

959
00:45:48,630 --> 00:45:44,859
father you know so you need the two so

960
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:48,640
it's very much you'd expect the ancient

961
00:45:54,990 --> 00:45:51,210
Israelites from the time of Moses to

962
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:55,000
have that same balance and then when you

963
00:45:58,620 --> 00:45:56,530
look at the text you find actually they

964
00:46:02,880 --> 00:45:58,630
did it's just that there was a long long

965
00:46:06,630 --> 00:46:02,890
process by which the the other day it is

966
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:06,640
were gradually screened out and then

967
00:46:14,970 --> 00:46:11,890
eventually every male God every male

968
00:46:18,780 --> 00:46:14,980
deity was expected to have his console

969
00:46:21,300 --> 00:46:18,790
his wife and that applied to Yahweh you

970
00:46:23,730 --> 00:46:21,310
know the biblical Jehovah as much as any

971
00:46:26,490 --> 00:46:23,740
and it was said quite late that they

972
00:46:29,670 --> 00:46:26,500
eventually decided that to go it to

973
00:46:32,550 --> 00:46:29,680
divorce him basically actually just

974
00:46:35,849 --> 00:46:32,560
interjecting about and it's true that

975
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:35,859
all civilizations in the time we're

976
00:46:39,740 --> 00:46:37,930
talking about over the course of

977
00:46:42,450 --> 00:46:39,750
thousands of years but they were

978
00:46:44,910 --> 00:46:42,460
generally patriarchal but having said

979
00:46:47,490 --> 00:46:44,920
that ancient Egypt was the least

980
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:47,500
patriarchal in the way treated it

981
00:46:52,290 --> 00:46:49,210
certainly it's upper-class women let's

982
00:46:54,359 --> 00:46:52,300
be honest yes because they could you

983
00:46:55,829 --> 00:46:54,369
know they could instigate divorce for

984
00:46:57,940 --> 00:46:55,839
heaven's sake that's amazing

985
00:47:00,910 --> 00:46:57,950
you know they could own property

986
00:47:02,859 --> 00:47:00,920
it was quite astonishing compared to

987
00:47:05,230 --> 00:47:02,869
much later obviously but compared to

988
00:47:07,900 --> 00:47:05,240
Greek and Roman treatment of women which

989
00:47:09,819 --> 00:47:07,910
was disgraceful you know they basically

990
00:47:12,970 --> 00:47:09,829
locked them away you know they had no

991
00:47:16,630 --> 00:47:12,980
voice they were treated like chattel but

992
00:47:19,359 --> 00:47:16,640
in Egypt it was different and and that

993
00:47:21,250 --> 00:47:19,369
was we can't say for certain that that

994
00:47:24,839 --> 00:47:21,260
was down to their religion but it

995
00:47:29,980 --> 00:47:24,849
certainly helped what and it seems that

996
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:29,990
from my perspective that we have left

997
00:47:36,849 --> 00:47:33,530
Egypt's history alone we haven't erased

998
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:36,859
the feminine side of it but we certainly

999
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:39,650
have throughout history with just about

1000
00:47:44,579 --> 00:47:42,170
everything else and that's that's

1001
00:47:49,329 --> 00:47:44,589
perplexing to me

1002
00:47:52,930 --> 00:47:49,339
it is and it is to us in a way because

1003
00:47:56,260 --> 00:47:52,940
you know the you know debate we've often

1004
00:47:58,140 --> 00:47:56,270
had is you know why the question you

1005
00:48:00,579 --> 00:47:58,150
asked earlier why did this happen and

1006
00:48:03,250 --> 00:48:00,589
from a modern perspective the the

1007
00:48:05,049 --> 00:48:03,260
immediate response would be well it's

1008
00:48:09,549 --> 00:48:05,059
because they were misogynists they just

1009
00:48:12,609 --> 00:48:09,559
hated women but some that could be too

1010
00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:12,619
simple an answer because there was a big

1011
00:48:17,890 --> 00:48:15,130
difference between patriarchy and

1012
00:48:19,569 --> 00:48:17,900
actually out like misogyny if you think

1013
00:48:22,780 --> 00:48:19,579
about that you know they were saying the

1014
00:48:25,690 --> 00:48:22,790
the ancient Greeks and Romans treated

1015
00:48:27,190 --> 00:48:25,700
their women appalling ly but they still

1016
00:48:29,410 --> 00:48:27,200
had their goddesses and they got his

1017
00:48:33,940 --> 00:48:29,420
cults they didn't try and raise them in

1018
00:48:37,930 --> 00:48:33,950
the way that you know happened in the

1019
00:48:40,180 --> 00:48:37,940
judeo-christian tradition so that that

1020
00:48:42,099 --> 00:48:40,190
yeah as I said earlier with you which

1021
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:42,109
came first which was the cause and which

1022
00:48:48,220 --> 00:48:44,210
was the effect but certainly you can

1023
00:48:51,039 --> 00:48:48,230
trace that that process happening until

1024
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:51,049
as a final moment where basically the

1025
00:48:58,599 --> 00:48:54,170
goddess is kicked out you know of that

1026
00:49:01,510 --> 00:48:58,609
tradition but Egypt is very important I

1027
00:49:04,740 --> 00:49:01,520
mean we do feel that the evidence is

1028
00:49:07,740 --> 00:49:04,750
very strong that

1029
00:49:10,290 --> 00:49:07,750
of a big influence of Egyptian religion

1030
00:49:16,380 --> 00:49:10,300
on the original Israelite religion the

1031
00:49:18,330 --> 00:49:16,390
religion of Moses it's it's a

1032
00:49:21,030 --> 00:49:18,340
controversial area you know many

1033
00:49:22,500 --> 00:49:21,040
scholars kind of reject that but we

1034
00:49:26,820 --> 00:49:22,510
actually do think it's very there's very

1035
00:49:29,820 --> 00:49:26,830
strong evidence of a direct connection

1036
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:29,830
between the Israelite religion the

1037
00:49:39,810 --> 00:49:34,690
religion of of Yahweh or Jehovah yeah

1038
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:39,820
has a lot more taken from Egypt than you

1039
00:49:44,610 --> 00:49:42,130
know a lot of people would think and

1040
00:49:47,420 --> 00:49:44,620
there actually was a it was a whole

1041
00:49:50,310 --> 00:49:47,430
Corps of literally of Egyptians not

1042
00:49:52,740 --> 00:49:50,320
hebrew slaves coming out of egypt but

1043
00:49:54,240 --> 00:49:52,750
the Mosin people moses and the people

1044
00:49:56,790 --> 00:49:54,250
around him in the original priesthood

1045
00:49:58,800 --> 00:49:56,800
were actually egyptian they had egyptian

1046
00:50:00,600 --> 00:49:58,810
names rate law yeah we're not when I

1047
00:50:02,220 --> 00:50:00,610
read that in the book I was like hold on

1048
00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:02,230
a minute here we got to pump the brakes

1049
00:50:09,510 --> 00:50:05,970
I gotta stop I gotta stop right there

1050
00:50:13,830 --> 00:50:09,520
and we're gonna come back to that Lin we

1051
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:13,840
need to discuss a Shura and the reason

1052
00:50:19,500 --> 00:50:17,410
why I want to do this directly and you

1053
00:50:22,410 --> 00:50:19,510
point this out on the book going back

1054
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:22,420
into the historical record for anything

1055
00:50:28,770 --> 00:50:25,930
else you can find stuff you can find

1056
00:50:30,270 --> 00:50:28,780
references but when we come to the

1057
00:50:33,810 --> 00:50:30,280
subject of Asherah

1058
00:50:36,870 --> 00:50:33,820
now it gets clouded you actually have to

1059
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:36,880
work for this information don't you what

1060
00:50:40,950 --> 00:50:37,450
do you do

1061
00:50:43,950 --> 00:50:40,960
largely because for centuries no

1062
00:50:46,020 --> 00:50:43,960
scholars thought the reference to usher

1063
00:50:48,780 --> 00:50:46,030
room in the old testament was just a

1064
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:48,790
strange tree cult it seemed to refer to

1065
00:50:53,670 --> 00:50:52,330
trees and they didn't really know what

1066
00:50:56,070 --> 00:50:53,680
it meant but they just thought well who

1067
00:50:59,070 --> 00:50:56,080
cares you know it's nothing much but it

1068
00:51:01,230 --> 00:50:59,080
transpires with modern largely speaking

1069
00:51:05,100 --> 00:51:01,240
you know modern scholarship that

1070
00:51:08,940 --> 00:51:05,110
actually referring to trees that were

1071
00:51:14,460 --> 00:51:08,950
set up as symbols of the goddess Asherah

1072
00:51:16,559 --> 00:51:14,470
who was in fact god's wife and let's

1073
00:51:21,900 --> 00:51:16,569
let's stay right there

1074
00:51:24,689 --> 00:51:21,910
side by side right side by side now this

1075
00:51:27,929 --> 00:51:24,699
gets really interesting here right we're

1076
00:51:31,589 --> 00:51:27,939
talking about the the representations

1077
00:51:34,949 --> 00:51:31,599
were there side by side one being a

1078
00:51:38,849 --> 00:51:34,959
pillar one being a tree yeah and the

1079
00:51:42,989 --> 00:51:38,859
pillar represented Yahweh and the tree

1080
00:51:46,199 --> 00:51:42,999
representing Ashura and although there

1081
00:51:49,079 --> 00:51:46,209
were no graven images of Yahweh allowed

1082
00:51:51,919 --> 00:51:49,089
or indeed really anybody allowed

1083
00:51:55,169 --> 00:51:51,929
certainly later in Solomon's Temple

1084
00:51:58,409 --> 00:51:55,179
Yahweh was worshipped but so was a Shura

1085
00:52:00,150 --> 00:51:58,419
and actually she was an official part of

1086
00:52:02,370 --> 00:52:00,160
the religion and this is astonishing

1087
00:52:06,809 --> 00:52:02,380
isn't it that people just don't know

1088
00:52:08,549 --> 00:52:06,819
this no no I said to you earlier off-air

1089
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:08,559
I found myself putting down the book so

1090
00:52:14,009 --> 00:52:11,410
many times going why why isn't this

1091
00:52:15,269 --> 00:52:14,019
being discussed so okay let's we're

1092
00:52:16,829 --> 00:52:15,279
gonna be talking about ash who were

1093
00:52:23,429 --> 00:52:16,839
quite a bit and we're gonna head towards

1094
00:52:25,949 --> 00:52:23,439
the break who was a Shura Asher was a

1095
00:52:27,959 --> 00:52:25,959
goddess she's also named from known from

1096
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:27,969
the Canaanite sources this is what gave

1097
00:52:34,259 --> 00:52:30,130
the clue to what the ash ash were

1098
00:52:39,029 --> 00:52:34,269
mentioned in the Bible is and she was

1099
00:52:41,939 --> 00:52:39,039
the under that the canine and that's an

1100
00:52:46,349 --> 00:52:41,949
extent the Israelites religion the big

1101
00:52:49,109 --> 00:52:46,359
main God was a God called el and he had

1102
00:52:52,169 --> 00:52:49,119
a consul a wife who helped him in the

1103
00:52:55,969 --> 00:52:52,179
act of you know creating the world and

1104
00:52:59,339 --> 00:52:55,979
was the the mother of the lesser gods

1105
00:53:03,630 --> 00:52:59,349
and that's exactly the role she has in

1106
00:53:05,519 --> 00:53:03,640
the Hebrew Bible although it's been

1107
00:53:07,319 --> 00:53:05,529
rewritten so much it's hard to sort of

1108
00:53:09,299 --> 00:53:07,329
untangle it but it but it's there

1109
00:53:12,509 --> 00:53:09,309
so she was essentially you know the big

1110
00:53:15,029 --> 00:53:12,519
mother goddess the console of the big

1111
00:53:19,169 --> 00:53:15,039
God the chief God and the two of them

1112
00:53:23,650 --> 00:53:19,179
together were the the parents of the the

1113
00:53:28,690 --> 00:53:27,250
and who as in said became angels later

1114
00:53:31,029 --> 00:53:28,700
in the Bible

1115
00:53:33,849 --> 00:53:31,039
but as usual she was the big goddess the

1116
00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:33,859
mother goddess the mother of the gods as

1117
00:53:39,940 --> 00:53:38,210
well as co-creator yes and it's a I mean

1118
00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:39,950
it's beyond a scandal isn't it

1119
00:53:46,990 --> 00:53:41,690
what that she's people just don't know

1120
00:53:52,180 --> 00:53:47,000
well they will know yeah well and yeah L

1121
00:53:56,079 --> 00:53:52,190
was the Hebrew a name for God and what

1122
00:53:58,210 --> 00:53:56,089
was hers uh she was called a Shura -

1123
00:54:02,260 --> 00:53:58,220
because I'm an L was both the Cain and I

1124
00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:02,270
and the Hebrew name because he's the god

1125
00:54:09,370 --> 00:54:06,970
of the the book of Genesis is is L

1126
00:54:12,370 --> 00:54:09,380
exclusively throughout that there comes

1127
00:54:15,359 --> 00:54:12,380
a point when Moses has this experience

1128
00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:15,369
with the burning bush that God's name

1129
00:54:22,809 --> 00:54:19,970
changes to Yahweh and that's portrayed

1130
00:54:24,670 --> 00:54:22,819
in the Bible as it's the same God he's

1131
00:54:27,789 --> 00:54:24,680
just referred to as a different name and

1132
00:54:31,210 --> 00:54:27,799
then pretty much the majority of times

1133
00:54:33,400 --> 00:54:31,220
after that point God is now Yahweh when

1134
00:54:35,559 --> 00:54:33,410
you reconstruct the thing you may as it

1135
00:54:37,870 --> 00:54:35,569
was obviously in the beginning they were

1136
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:37,880
two separate gods l was the big Creator

1137
00:54:45,519 --> 00:54:40,010
God Yahweh was one of the second-ranked

1138
00:54:47,859 --> 00:54:45,529
one of the sons of L who was given the

1139
00:54:53,109 --> 00:54:47,869
the people of Israel the nation of

1140
00:54:54,670 --> 00:54:53,119
Israel as you know that the nations of

1141
00:54:58,839 --> 00:54:54,680
the earth have divided amongst the sons

1142
00:55:00,130 --> 00:54:58,849
of L and Yahweh got Israel which is why

1143
00:55:02,049 --> 00:55:00,140
I had this special one-to-one

1144
00:55:06,039 --> 00:55:02,059
relationship well although it's

1145
00:55:07,750 --> 00:55:06,049
portrayed in the Bible as if it's L and

1146
00:55:10,569 --> 00:55:07,760
your we're just two names for the same

1147
00:55:12,130 --> 00:55:10,579
God when you reconstruct the whole thing

1148
00:55:13,660 --> 00:55:12,140
and look at it in the right way and you

1149
00:55:14,980 --> 00:55:13,670
compare it to say the king of night

1150
00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:14,990
legends it's very clear they were -

1151
00:55:21,609 --> 00:55:17,690
originally two separate deities of the

1152
00:55:23,589 --> 00:55:21,619
high one on a lower one and during that

1153
00:55:26,710 --> 00:55:23,599
later rewriting that whole thing got

1154
00:55:28,870 --> 00:55:26,720
fudged and changed they it's very you

1155
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:28,880
can be reconstructed I mean the thing to

1156
00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:31,970
remember is that it was desperately

1157
00:55:35,950 --> 00:55:35,450
unusual to have just one God in those

1158
00:55:38,710 --> 00:55:35,960
days

1159
00:55:40,660 --> 00:55:38,720
you know it was it was abnormal it was

1160
00:55:43,630 --> 00:55:40,670
unnatural to have just one god

1161
00:55:46,390 --> 00:55:43,640
it was the total norm across the

1162
00:55:49,060 --> 00:55:46,400
civilized world was to have a Pantheon

1163
00:55:51,550 --> 00:55:49,070
or a range of gods who had different

1164
00:55:53,650 --> 00:55:51,560
functions just like the Catholic saints

1165
00:55:57,400 --> 00:55:53,660
which is a reflection of that what's

1166
00:56:02,349 --> 00:55:57,410
there a femine a hebrew feminine version

1167
00:56:04,390 --> 00:56:02,359
of el well yes there is sometimes

1168
00:56:09,390 --> 00:56:04,400
referred to as a lance then some

1169
00:56:17,740 --> 00:56:13,240
that's what I'm on about how how is that

1170
00:56:19,390 --> 00:56:17,750
not referenced today well there are

1171
00:56:20,410 --> 00:56:19,400
actually inscriptions that have been

1172
00:56:23,109 --> 00:56:20,420
found this is where the archeology

1173
00:56:25,839 --> 00:56:23,119
becomes important yeah there are

1174
00:56:29,079 --> 00:56:25,849
inscriptions that have been found there

1175
00:56:31,150 --> 00:56:29,089
too you know this is obviously before

1176
00:56:34,300 --> 00:56:31,160
the rewriting of the text and the

1177
00:56:39,550 --> 00:56:34,310
compiling of it into this you know what

1178
00:56:41,829 --> 00:56:39,560
became the Hebrew Bible but from that

1179
00:56:46,020 --> 00:56:41,839
earlier period you'd actually have found

1180
00:56:49,420 --> 00:56:46,030
inscriptions to to Yahweh and his Ashura

1181
00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:49,430
the other two of them as a couple you

1182
00:56:53,740 --> 00:56:51,290
know it's been several examples of this

1183
00:56:58,750 --> 00:56:53,750
found there's also one that sometimes

1184
00:57:03,579 --> 00:56:58,760
called el act but that shows you rather

1185
00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:03,589
than the later writings there have been

1186
00:57:08,770 --> 00:57:06,530
edited in the light of what they wanted

1187
00:57:10,990 --> 00:57:08,780
a religion to be the archaeology shows

1188
00:57:13,750 --> 00:57:11,000
you what the people of actually of the

1189
00:57:16,150 --> 00:57:13,760
time believed and you know there are

1190
00:57:18,460 --> 00:57:16,160
these figurines of the Asherah figure

1191
00:57:20,710 --> 00:57:18,470
that been found throughout israel from

1192
00:57:21,849 --> 00:57:20,720
the earlier period I mean literally

1193
00:57:25,180 --> 00:57:21,859
thousands of them

1194
00:57:26,740 --> 00:57:25,190
yeah well yeah let me jump in right

1195
00:57:28,329 --> 00:57:26,750
there Clive I got to take a break and

1196
00:57:30,700 --> 00:57:28,339
we're gonna talk about those figurines

1197
00:57:33,520 --> 00:57:30,710
when we come back they're absolutely

1198
00:57:33,730 --> 00:57:33,530
fascinating to look at this is fade to

1199
00:57:35,500 --> 00:57:33,740
black

1200
00:57:37,990 --> 00:57:35,510
I'm your host Jimmy church tonight Lynn

1201
00:57:40,270 --> 00:57:38,000
picnic live prints were discussing their

1202
00:57:43,270 --> 00:57:40,280
new book release yesterday here in the

1203
00:57:47,210 --> 00:57:43,280
United States when God had a wife we'll

1204
00:58:24,310 --> 00:58:21,900
[Music]

1205
00:58:26,510 --> 00:58:24,320
[Applause]

1206
00:58:28,190 --> 00:58:26,520
welcome back fade to black I'm Neil

1207
00:58:31,130 --> 00:58:28,200
Shuman church great show tonight I want

1208
00:58:34,160 --> 00:58:31,140
to remind everybody tomorrow night we're

1209
00:58:38,210 --> 00:58:34,170
not doing open lines tomorrow night live

1210
00:58:39,349 --> 00:58:38,220
from India deep Prasad is joining the

1211
00:58:42,650 --> 00:58:39,359
show so that'll be tomorrow night

1212
00:58:44,270 --> 00:58:42,660
tonight it's Olympic net and Clyde

1213
00:58:47,300 --> 00:58:44,280
prints were discussing their new book

1214
00:58:50,810 --> 00:58:47,310
when God had a wife and by the way I've

1215
00:58:57,859 --> 00:58:50,820
got the title for your next book mm-hmm

1216
00:58:59,960 --> 00:58:57,869
when God had a mom that's the next book

1217
00:59:04,010 --> 00:58:59,970
well you know as I was reading through

1218
00:59:08,300 --> 00:59:04,020
and I want to get back to a shrah in

1219
00:59:12,950 --> 00:59:08,310
just a second but Kadesh I hope I'm

1220
00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:12,960
saying it right and I went back it by

1221
00:59:18,339 --> 00:59:14,970
the way I want everybody to know that

1222
00:59:22,010 --> 00:59:18,349
the book is full of notes and references

1223
00:59:24,829 --> 00:59:22,020
back to all of their research and and I

1224
00:59:27,740 --> 00:59:24,839
find I like a good I like a good spy

1225
00:59:30,560 --> 00:59:27,750
novel like anybody but it's books like

1226
00:59:33,800 --> 00:59:30,570
this where I'm actually able to work and

1227
00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:33,810
research and reference that means so

1228
00:59:40,190 --> 00:59:36,410
much to me in this book is full of that

1229
00:59:47,780 --> 00:59:40,200
and when I got to Kadesh is that how you

1230
00:59:49,640 --> 00:59:47,790
say it we say Kentish but because they

1231
00:59:52,849 --> 00:59:49,650
didn't have vowels in those days where

1232
01:00:00,550 --> 00:59:52,859
everyone has to guess right or so yeah

1233
01:00:08,060 --> 01:00:05,510
well no it depends which God you're

1234
01:00:11,540 --> 01:00:08,070
talking about because there's this thing

1235
01:00:14,599 --> 01:00:11,550
of you know saying earlier L the the big

1236
01:00:17,630 --> 01:00:14,609
God and Yahweh originally being one of

1237
01:00:20,780 --> 01:00:17,640
the sons the second level God now a

1238
01:00:26,450 --> 01:00:20,790
strange thing happened over the course

1239
01:00:28,280 --> 01:00:26,460
of the evolution of the religion that we

1240
01:00:30,800 --> 01:00:28,290
go into it's a bit of a complicated

1241
01:00:33,470 --> 01:00:30,810
story but we go to in the book that over

1242
01:00:36,470 --> 01:00:33,480
time a Shura who started off as the wife

1243
01:00:38,590 --> 01:00:36,480
of L in later believed got transferred

1244
01:00:43,420 --> 01:00:38,600
to Yahweh to the

1245
01:00:45,670 --> 01:00:43,430
and that but so and what was then

1246
01:00:48,130 --> 01:00:45,680
worshiped in the temple alongside Yahweh

1247
01:00:50,170 --> 01:00:48,140
as then was saying the thing with Kadesh

1248
01:00:54,280 --> 01:00:50,180
is that like all the ancient goddess is

1249
01:00:57,850 --> 01:00:54,290
a Shura had different aspects and her

1250
01:01:00,400 --> 01:00:57,860
different names so and although she was

1251
01:01:02,500 --> 01:01:00,410
the mother goddess primarily you know

1252
01:01:06,130 --> 01:01:02,510
the wife of the big God she also had her

1253
01:01:09,310 --> 01:01:06,140
fertility and her very erotic aspect and

1254
01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:09,320
this is the one that when people talk

1255
01:01:13,720 --> 01:01:11,810
about Kaddish that's the side of her

1256
01:01:20,680 --> 01:01:13,730
they're talking about so this is her in

1257
01:01:23,110 --> 01:01:20,690
her kind of sexy raunchy raunchy yeah so

1258
01:01:25,960 --> 01:01:23,120
yeah sure is you think of her as the

1259
01:01:30,190 --> 01:01:25,970
mother Kadesh is sure she's still the

1260
01:01:38,470 --> 01:01:30,200
mother but she's Muslim said raunchy hmm

1261
01:01:40,950 --> 01:01:38,480
I read it in a different way yeah I did

1262
01:01:44,650 --> 01:01:40,960
and and from what and like I said

1263
01:01:47,590 --> 01:01:44,660
everybody's got a mom and dad you know

1264
01:01:50,380 --> 01:01:47,600
and I'm just wondering where God came

1265
01:01:54,570 --> 01:01:50,390
from and that's your next book I'm just

1266
01:02:00,180 --> 01:01:57,970
getting back to these figurines and and

1267
01:02:03,850 --> 01:02:00,190
I went and looked at all of these

1268
01:02:05,800 --> 01:02:03,860
amazing images on the web and this is

1269
01:02:08,850 --> 01:02:05,810
something that again until this book and

1270
01:02:12,040 --> 01:02:08,860
the references I had no clue about and

1271
01:02:15,280 --> 01:02:12,050
and I'd looked at the the collections

1272
01:02:22,530 --> 01:02:15,290
and the fascinating thing for me and I

1273
01:02:26,950 --> 01:02:25,510
well these figurines which you know

1274
01:02:29,230 --> 01:02:26,960
they're very small countries of

1275
01:02:34,690 --> 01:02:29,240
different models they seem to be

1276
01:02:38,980 --> 01:02:34,700
emphasizing the goddess with emphasizing

1277
01:02:42,640 --> 01:02:38,990
a Shura as mother as nurturer so there's

1278
01:02:47,380 --> 01:02:42,650
a great emphasis on on the breasts but

1279
01:02:48,610 --> 01:02:47,390
not in an erotic way it's you know it

1280
01:02:53,410 --> 01:02:48,620
has

1281
01:02:55,450 --> 01:02:53,420
as nurturing as nursing so the legs are

1282
01:02:57,940 --> 01:02:55,460
irrelevant yes yeah the legs are there

1283
01:02:58,570 --> 01:02:57,950
are no legs and that's that that's my

1284
01:03:02,410 --> 01:02:58,580
point

1285
01:03:05,110 --> 01:03:02,420
they all they're on how do I say this

1286
01:03:07,720 --> 01:03:05,120
they're on stands right am i describing

1287
01:03:09,280 --> 01:03:07,730
that correctly that's it I mean partly

1288
01:03:11,140 --> 01:03:09,290
the yeah the caught pillar base

1289
01:03:12,850 --> 01:03:11,150
figurines pillow impossible the legs

1290
01:03:14,830 --> 01:03:12,860
aren't there because it's give them a

1291
01:03:17,770 --> 01:03:14,840
base to stand up on why would you say

1292
01:03:21,210 --> 01:03:17,780
that if there are other images of Ashura

1293
01:03:23,470 --> 01:03:21,220
in her Kadesh mode and they do show

1294
01:03:26,050 --> 01:03:23,480
everything from the waist down in quite

1295
01:03:27,820 --> 01:03:26,060
graphic detail so it depends which bit

1296
01:03:30,760 --> 01:03:27,830
you're honoring but these these

1297
01:03:32,980 --> 01:03:30,770
figurines which were there they found

1298
01:03:37,510 --> 01:03:32,990
literally you know some like 3000 of

1299
01:03:40,420 --> 01:03:37,520
them throughout Israel in Jerusalem all

1300
01:03:42,250 --> 01:03:40,430
from the period being the Israelite

1301
01:03:45,210 --> 01:03:42,260
period I think that's all 7th or 8th

1302
01:03:47,860 --> 01:03:45,220
century BC and they're obviously very

1303
01:03:51,460 --> 01:03:47,870
very popular images they're very

1304
01:03:52,810 --> 01:03:51,470
domestic yeah I should add of course you

1305
01:03:54,970 --> 01:03:52,820
have to bear in mind that all those

1306
01:03:56,650 --> 01:03:54,980
Klaus said they're about 3,000 of them

1307
01:03:58,570 --> 01:03:56,660
they're the only ones that have been

1308
01:04:00,430 --> 01:03:58,580
found i mean imagine how many there

1309
01:04:02,560 --> 01:04:00,440
actually were you know that have got

1310
01:04:05,770 --> 01:04:02,570
destroyed over the years I mean it just

1311
01:04:08,410 --> 01:04:05,780
shows you how beloved she was how

1312
01:04:10,810 --> 01:04:08,420
revered and how she was a part of

1313
01:04:12,700 --> 01:04:10,820
everyday life because ordinary people

1314
01:04:15,340 --> 01:04:12,710
would have had you know these little

1315
01:04:18,190 --> 01:04:15,350
figurines around around their homes in

1316
01:04:20,350 --> 01:04:18,200
matter how modest so she was actually an

1317
01:04:22,540 --> 01:04:20,360
integral part of their of everyday

1318
01:04:24,190 --> 01:04:22,550
worship

1319
01:04:26,920 --> 01:04:24,200
another important thing if we can just

1320
01:04:29,110 --> 01:04:26,930
quickly sure sure is that yeah we have

1321
01:04:31,480 --> 01:04:29,120
the literary thousands of them found

1322
01:04:34,270 --> 01:04:31,490
throughout history

1323
01:04:36,070 --> 01:04:34,280
okay but then when you get to this

1324
01:04:38,860 --> 01:04:36,080
period in the middle of the fifth

1325
01:04:42,490 --> 01:04:38,870
century BC when the religion was

1326
01:04:44,380 --> 01:04:42,500
codified and made into dogma they

1327
01:04:46,870 --> 01:04:44,390
utterly disappear there hasn't been a

1328
01:04:49,300 --> 01:04:46,880
single one found that's dated from after

1329
01:04:52,380 --> 01:04:49,310
that period so it's like suddenly

1330
01:04:55,420 --> 01:04:52,390
there's a big clamp down and these these

1331
01:04:57,940 --> 01:04:55,430
beloved images that were so popular

1332
01:04:59,350 --> 01:04:57,950
before you're now not allowed to have

1333
01:05:01,930 --> 01:04:59,360
them actually that's a very good point

1334
01:05:04,980 --> 01:05:01,940
sorry it's just that you know it was

1335
01:05:08,079 --> 01:05:04,990
verifying the Judaic religion that

1336
01:05:09,819 --> 01:05:08,089
essentially got rid of the goddess and

1337
01:05:11,620 --> 01:05:09,829
it was codifying the Christian religion

1338
01:05:18,220 --> 01:05:11,630
that essentially got rid of the goddess

1339
01:05:19,780 --> 01:05:18,230
yeah so yeah so yeah and we're gonna

1340
01:05:24,609 --> 01:05:19,790
come back to this but there's another

1341
01:05:27,790 --> 01:05:24,619
part they were just her figurines that

1342
01:05:33,569 --> 01:05:27,800
were found in these homes there wasn't a

1343
01:05:37,839 --> 01:05:33,579
male site there wasn't a male figurine

1344
01:05:40,750 --> 01:05:37,849
that was a prohibition representing

1345
01:05:44,589 --> 01:05:40,760
Yahweh so that would probably explain it

1346
01:05:46,630 --> 01:05:44,599
but at the same time you know yes they

1347
01:05:48,430 --> 01:05:46,640
would concentrate on what they could see

1348
01:05:50,800 --> 01:05:48,440
visually I think because you know the

1349
01:05:52,660 --> 01:05:50,810
idea of a God that you couldn't see and

1350
01:05:55,120 --> 01:05:52,670
you couldn't represent would be a bit

1351
01:05:57,849 --> 01:05:55,130
bit vague to the average person and I

1352
01:05:59,200 --> 01:05:57,859
think the idea of a of a mother who you

1353
01:06:01,240 --> 01:05:59,210
could represent and have a little

1354
01:06:04,240 --> 01:06:01,250
figurine of or for that matter a grand

1355
01:06:09,280 --> 01:06:04,250
mummy image you know made a lot of sense

1356
01:06:13,450 --> 01:06:09,290
to them so what we can deduce from all

1357
01:06:15,640 --> 01:06:13,460
of this is that the Hebrew side of

1358
01:06:21,250 --> 01:06:15,650
things the Israelite side of things

1359
01:06:25,150 --> 01:06:21,260
Asherah was represented and revered and

1360
01:06:30,300 --> 01:06:25,160
worshipped alongside God and that was

1361
01:06:36,420 --> 01:06:30,310
the basis of of their culture absolutely

1362
01:06:40,140 --> 01:06:36,430
and again reading between the lines of

1363
01:06:44,950 --> 01:06:42,910
you can reconstruct that I'm thinking

1364
01:06:46,809 --> 01:06:44,960
about one really telling thing is if you

1365
01:06:50,740 --> 01:06:46,819
look at the story as told throughout the

1366
01:06:53,050 --> 01:06:50,750
Hebrew Bible you get this feeling that

1367
01:06:55,960 --> 01:06:53,060
the people of Israel always worship

1368
01:06:59,260 --> 01:06:55,970
Yahweh and Yahweh alone and that but

1369
01:07:01,390 --> 01:06:59,270
they're occasionally they turn to the

1370
01:07:04,599 --> 01:07:01,400
worship of other gods and to Asherah in

1371
01:07:08,050 --> 01:07:04,609
particular and put her image in the

1372
01:07:08,900 --> 01:07:08,060
template rousillon temple as well you

1373
01:07:19,590 --> 01:07:08,910
know

1374
01:07:21,090 --> 01:07:19,600
to backsliding or apostasy and and come

1375
01:07:22,950 --> 01:07:21,100
up to the religion by putting this

1376
01:07:24,750 --> 01:07:22,960
figure in there but then the next king

1377
01:07:29,370 --> 01:07:24,760
would take it out the impression that's

1378
01:07:31,530 --> 01:07:29,380
given is that that the temple was for

1379
01:07:34,730 --> 01:07:31,540
Yahweh alone except for these odd

1380
01:07:38,130 --> 01:07:34,740
occasions when people went off the rails

1381
01:07:39,810 --> 01:07:38,140
but then you actually look at not the

1382
01:07:41,520 --> 01:07:39,820
message the books are trying to give but

1383
01:07:44,210 --> 01:07:41,530
the facts they give and you actually

1384
01:07:48,840 --> 01:07:44,220
start totting up the number of years

1385
01:07:51,330 --> 01:07:48,850
that the Asherah figure was in the

1386
01:07:53,250 --> 01:07:51,340
temple and you actually found that the

1387
01:07:55,290 --> 01:07:53,260
story actually tells is different to the

1388
01:07:58,950 --> 01:07:55,300
point they're trying to make so actually

1389
01:07:59,850 --> 01:07:58,960
that image being in Solomon's Temple was

1390
01:08:03,570 --> 01:07:59,860
the norm

1391
01:08:05,970 --> 01:08:03,580
the majority of years like 70 percent of

1392
01:08:09,060 --> 01:08:05,980
the time that that temple existed even

1393
01:08:11,370 --> 01:08:09,070
according to the Bible's own facts and

1394
01:08:14,040 --> 01:08:11,380
figures seventy percent of the time an

1395
01:08:15,890 --> 01:08:14,050
image of Ashura was in the temple so

1396
01:08:18,630 --> 01:08:15,900
it's the times when the the a

1397
01:08:23,540 --> 01:08:18,640
particularly reforming King would come

1398
01:08:26,490 --> 01:08:23,550
and take those images out of the temple

1399
01:08:29,550 --> 01:08:26,500
that that is the aberration that that's

1400
01:08:31,620 --> 01:08:29,560
that's not the norm and then you kept

1401
01:08:34,079 --> 01:08:31,630
these Kings that would take the image

1402
01:08:35,160 --> 01:08:34,089
out and burn it um but then his

1403
01:08:38,040 --> 01:08:35,170
successor would just put it straight

1404
01:08:40,410 --> 01:08:38,050
back in so exactly having the image of

1405
01:08:45,170 --> 01:08:40,420
Asherah in the jerusalem temple was the

1406
01:08:48,180 --> 01:08:45,180
norm not the unusual part there were as

1407
01:08:50,310 --> 01:08:48,190
we always go back to you know the facts

1408
01:08:52,200 --> 01:08:50,320
of the archaeology what is the evidence

1409
01:08:57,420 --> 01:08:52,210
you know we have to go back to that and

1410
01:09:00,990 --> 01:08:57,430
you guys do and then there was this for

1411
01:09:04,290 --> 01:09:01,000
me in the book where there was a

1412
01:09:08,910 --> 01:09:04,300
researcher that was looking at some

1413
01:09:12,329 --> 01:09:08,920
Canaanite art and we have the goat and

1414
01:09:14,030 --> 01:09:12,339
the tree and when I got to I want you

1415
01:09:17,940 --> 01:09:14,040
guys to go through this because this

1416
01:09:19,920 --> 01:09:17,950
talked about a revelation right and and

1417
01:09:21,289 --> 01:09:19,930
I get to that part in the book and again

1418
01:09:23,959 --> 01:09:21,299
I had to go back

1419
01:09:27,169 --> 01:09:23,969
and check references and and go back for

1420
01:09:29,780 --> 01:09:27,179
me it was absolutely fascinating but

1421
01:09:33,169 --> 01:09:29,790
this is a part when we talk about the

1422
01:09:34,370 --> 01:09:33,179
Bible or Bible relics or archeology it's

1423
01:09:38,120 --> 01:09:34,380
tough to come by

1424
01:09:41,180 --> 01:09:38,130
it does surface but here it did tell us

1425
01:09:43,309 --> 01:09:41,190
about the goat in the tree this was

1426
01:09:49,519 --> 01:09:43,319
something that was discovered a little

1427
01:09:54,350 --> 01:09:49,529
while back by lady called Ruth Hester in

1428
01:10:00,169 --> 01:09:54,360
who is a curator at the Israeli Museum

1429
01:10:03,379 --> 01:10:00,179
in Jerusalem and although she was a had

1430
01:10:06,260 --> 01:10:03,389
a position in that she wasn't an

1431
01:10:08,540 --> 01:10:06,270
academic biblical scholar which is why

1432
01:10:12,950 --> 01:10:08,550
what she discovered was ignored for so

1433
01:10:16,089 --> 01:10:12,960
long that eventually you know eventually

1434
01:10:18,919 --> 01:10:16,099
it got published and and taken notice of

1435
01:10:21,680 --> 01:10:18,929
it's a fairly complicated line of

1436
01:10:23,450 --> 01:10:21,690
reasoning that she did but it was

1437
01:10:26,689 --> 01:10:23,460
looking at she was just noticing that

1438
01:10:29,600 --> 01:10:26,699
there was this this image of a tree with

1439
01:10:32,270 --> 01:10:29,610
two goats either side of standing on

1440
01:10:34,250 --> 01:10:32,280
their back legs nibbling at it and if

1441
01:10:39,250 --> 01:10:34,260
this was a Canaanite image and it was

1442
01:10:41,899 --> 01:10:39,260
acknowledged to be a symbol of a schwa

1443
01:10:47,030 --> 01:10:41,909
as we've said it actually was symbolized

1444
01:10:52,520 --> 01:10:47,040
by a tree in in some other images

1445
01:10:56,899 --> 01:10:52,530
there's also the the tree is is rising

1446
01:10:59,060 --> 01:10:56,909
from a pubic triangle out below so with

1447
01:11:02,540 --> 01:10:59,070
the gates the the goats either side kind

1448
01:11:04,879 --> 01:11:02,550
of nibbling at the tree and what Ruth

1449
01:11:07,189 --> 01:11:04,889
has been started to put these complex of

1450
01:11:10,850 --> 01:11:07,199
imagery together starting with the

1451
01:11:15,709 --> 01:11:10,860
Canaanite stuff so this pre Israel but

1452
01:11:20,330 --> 01:11:15,719
they realizing the same images are found

1453
01:11:22,010 --> 01:11:20,340
in Israelite iconography him which was

1454
01:11:24,290 --> 01:11:22,020
the kind of big breakthrough for her to

1455
01:11:26,299 --> 01:11:24,300
realize actually these are symbols of

1456
01:11:28,370 --> 01:11:26,309
Ashura people I mean people have seen

1457
01:11:30,140 --> 01:11:28,380
these Israelite images for a long time

1458
01:11:32,419 --> 01:11:30,150
and just said oh it's a couple of goats

1459
01:11:34,490 --> 01:11:32,429
nibbling a tree that's you know but what

1460
01:11:34,939 --> 01:11:34,500
she put together also using some other

1461
01:11:37,850 --> 01:11:34,949
symbol

1462
01:11:40,400 --> 01:11:37,860
from Egypt was realizing that actually

1463
01:11:42,800 --> 01:11:40,410
these were Israelite images of Ashura

1464
01:11:44,030 --> 01:11:42,810
and it's part of that whole thing along

1465
01:11:46,910 --> 01:11:44,040
with these inscriptions that we've

1466
01:11:49,280 --> 01:11:46,920
talked about and the the figurines that

1467
01:11:52,160 --> 01:11:49,290
we've talked about that made realize

1468
01:11:54,020 --> 01:11:52,170
that you know this imagery was was was

1469
01:11:59,209 --> 01:11:54,030
used throughout the Israelite period

1470
01:12:02,390 --> 01:11:59,219
referring to a schwa and this is a

1471
01:12:04,610 --> 01:12:02,400
fertility sort of nature aspect with the

1472
01:12:09,950 --> 01:12:04,620
tree and you know sustaining the goats

1473
01:12:12,260 --> 01:12:09,960
and things that you know it showed how

1474
01:12:13,970 --> 01:12:12,270
prevalent she'd been in that and how the

1475
01:12:16,400 --> 01:12:13,980
archaeology it's shown that for a long

1476
01:12:18,439 --> 01:12:16,410
time but nobody had put it all together

1477
01:12:22,760 --> 01:12:18,449
and noticed until Ruth s Turing came

1478
01:12:25,280 --> 01:12:22,770
along outlined her argument eventually

1479
01:12:29,959 --> 01:12:25,290
was able to get it published in an

1480
01:12:32,840 --> 01:12:29,969
archeological journal and now that's a

1481
01:12:35,660 --> 01:12:32,850
kind of Orthodoxy you know these being

1482
01:12:38,030 --> 01:12:35,670
symbols of Ashura is understood by

1483
01:12:40,040 --> 01:12:38,040
mainstream archaeology but they don't

1484
01:12:43,760 --> 01:12:40,050
always credit Musa I was just gonna say

1485
01:12:45,919 --> 01:12:43,770
yeah I mean you know it's it's now well

1486
01:12:48,380 --> 01:12:45,929
it's now accepted and as I've said in

1487
01:12:50,090 --> 01:12:48,390
mainstream archaeology but yet again you

1488
01:12:52,760 --> 01:12:50,100
know the average synagogue girl or

1489
01:12:55,760 --> 01:12:52,770
church goer has no idea and of course

1490
01:12:57,590 --> 01:12:55,770
poor Ruth Hester in you know it's its

1491
01:12:59,660 --> 01:12:57,600
control well it's it's accepted you know

1492
01:13:01,939 --> 01:12:59,670
they never very rarely mentioned her

1493
01:13:04,580 --> 01:13:01,949
name so Ruth has been Ruth has been Ruth

1494
01:13:07,400 --> 01:13:04,590
Hester in right she's got her name check

1495
01:13:12,979 --> 01:13:07,410
and about time too that was an amazing

1496
01:13:16,010 --> 01:13:12,989
piece of deduction now if I had well the

1497
01:13:19,459 --> 01:13:16,020
other part about Ruth was you know she's

1498
01:13:22,340 --> 01:13:19,469
making these connections and she goes to

1499
01:13:25,100 --> 01:13:22,350
look at history and and came up empty

1500
01:13:26,200 --> 01:13:25,110
you know that's that's the other part

1501
01:13:29,270 --> 01:13:26,210
for me

1502
01:13:31,400 --> 01:13:29,280
she realized things were being erased or

1503
01:13:33,890 --> 01:13:31,410
were erased it was something that she

1504
01:13:37,400 --> 01:13:33,900
should have known about but if I had a

1505
01:13:39,140 --> 01:13:37,410
rabbi on the show I should know what I

1506
01:13:42,350 --> 01:13:39,150
know a couple I should get one on the

1507
01:13:46,889 --> 01:13:42,360
phone right now what what do you think

1508
01:13:51,810 --> 01:13:46,899
that they would have to say about this

1509
01:13:53,850 --> 01:13:51,820
I really don't know I think they might

1510
01:13:56,850 --> 01:13:53,860
they might be I mean it's absolutely

1511
01:13:58,919 --> 01:13:56,860
pressed they might say oh well yes I

1512
01:14:00,899 --> 01:13:58,929
mean yes we known about Asha room yeah

1513
01:14:03,209 --> 01:14:00,909
there's some sort of talk of her you

1514
01:14:04,979 --> 01:14:03,219
know being you know worshiped by some

1515
01:14:08,279 --> 01:14:04,989
pockets of people in the old days but

1516
01:14:11,969 --> 01:14:08,289
that of course was heresy you know well

1517
01:14:14,969 --> 01:14:11,979
that was apostasy or maybe just simply

1518
01:14:19,350 --> 01:14:14,979
not even know about it I mean it's a bit

1519
01:14:20,609 --> 01:14:19,360
like you know Christians we you can

1520
01:14:22,379 --> 01:14:20,619
imagine and we know the over the years

1521
01:14:24,569 --> 01:14:22,389
we've had debates with them about

1522
01:14:26,100 --> 01:14:24,579
various things and you say well what

1523
01:14:27,929 --> 01:14:26,110
about the Gnostic Gospels and and

1524
01:14:31,169 --> 01:14:27,939
they'll say well you know even even

1525
01:14:34,199 --> 01:14:31,179
priests or vicars will say well we think

1526
01:14:36,959 --> 01:14:34,209
we've heard of them you know and and

1527
01:14:40,310 --> 01:14:36,969
it's it's a the whole blanking want what

1528
01:14:43,859 --> 01:14:40,320
they what you know one whole aspect of

1529
01:14:47,009 --> 01:14:43,869
the religion both you know the Judaic

1530
01:14:49,889 --> 01:14:47,019
religion and Christianity and it's

1531
01:14:52,290 --> 01:14:49,899
usually to do with the feminine but I

1532
01:14:54,750 --> 01:14:52,300
think you know the problem from a modern

1533
01:14:57,330 --> 01:14:54,760
perspective you if you were debating

1534
01:15:02,699 --> 01:14:57,340
with the rabbi and yet yes there is now

1535
01:15:04,259 --> 01:15:02,709
an a grudging acknowledgment that yes

1536
01:15:05,429 --> 01:15:04,269
that the feminine needs to be

1537
01:15:08,250 --> 01:15:05,439
acknowledged you know and there were

1538
01:15:11,100 --> 01:15:08,260
streams you know obviously a feminist

1539
01:15:14,429 --> 01:15:11,110
forms of Judaism in which have female

1540
01:15:17,790 --> 01:15:14,439
rabbis and that and the beginning to

1541
01:15:20,909 --> 01:15:17,800
acknowledge that God has a feminine

1542
01:15:22,770 --> 01:15:20,919
aspect you know which is all fine and

1543
01:15:26,159 --> 01:15:22,780
good but I'm thinking from a modern

1544
01:15:28,379 --> 01:15:26,169
perspective the problem with what we're

1545
01:15:31,830 --> 01:15:28,389
saying in the book is it's also

1546
01:15:35,159 --> 01:15:31,840
questioning the idea of monotheism and I

1547
01:15:39,060 --> 01:15:35,169
think that is that's a harder one to get

1548
01:15:42,179 --> 01:15:39,070
over because after saying for literally

1549
01:15:44,189 --> 01:15:42,189
thousands of years telling people it's

1550
01:15:46,949 --> 01:15:44,199
monotheists there's only one God so we

1551
01:15:49,799 --> 01:15:46,959
need to worry about suddenly to say

1552
01:15:51,899 --> 01:15:49,809
actually no there were others it's a

1553
01:15:55,020 --> 01:15:51,909
sick it's a it's a harder one to get

1554
01:15:56,879 --> 01:15:55,030
over that you you can't gradually

1555
01:15:59,879 --> 01:15:56,889
reintroduce the Sacred Feminine and it

1556
01:16:00,630 --> 01:15:59,889
is happening slowly no not not cooking

1557
01:16:02,670 --> 01:16:00,640
enough

1558
01:16:06,180 --> 01:16:02,680
happening within Christianity as well

1559
01:16:08,460 --> 01:16:06,190
again slowly but actually questioning

1560
01:16:11,580 --> 01:16:08,470
the basic monotheism is a tricky one

1561
01:16:14,070 --> 01:16:11,590
yeah and you know just plural gods is a

1562
01:16:16,380 --> 01:16:14,080
tricky one to convey to most people now

1563
01:16:17,970 --> 01:16:16,390
because to most people you know like we

1564
01:16:19,710 --> 01:16:17,980
talked about the ancient Egyptian gods

1565
01:16:23,430 --> 01:16:19,720
and they instantly think about animal or

1566
01:16:25,560 --> 01:16:23,440
bird headed people which is distasteful

1567
01:16:27,000 --> 01:16:25,570
to a lot of modern people so they

1568
01:16:30,450 --> 01:16:27,010
wouldn't even try to get their heads

1569
01:16:33,240 --> 01:16:30,460
around the idea of many gods although

1570
01:16:35,280 --> 01:16:33,250
interestingly it's quite easy you know

1571
01:16:37,470 --> 01:16:35,290
for a Catholic to get his head or his or

1572
01:16:39,950 --> 01:16:37,480
her head around the idea of Saints you

1573
01:16:44,880 --> 01:16:39,960
know representing different aspects of

1574
01:16:47,370 --> 01:16:44,890
the divine life but yes it's a tricky

1575
01:16:50,880 --> 01:16:47,380
one and it will take an awful as I've

1576
01:16:54,090 --> 01:16:50,890
said an awful lot of realigning one's

1577
01:16:55,920 --> 01:16:54,100
thought processes to understand the idea

1578
01:16:57,930 --> 01:16:55,930
of many gods but it's there you know

1579
01:17:01,140 --> 01:16:57,940
we're not making this up it's there in

1580
01:17:08,550 --> 01:17:01,150
in the Hebrew Bible and what about the

1581
01:17:10,830 --> 01:17:08,560
Dead Sea Scrolls important it's the Dead

1582
01:17:12,360 --> 01:17:10,840
Sea Scrolls often looked at from a

1583
01:17:14,880 --> 01:17:12,370
perspective of what they tell us about

1584
01:17:17,340 --> 01:17:14,890
Jesus and the origins of Christianity

1585
01:17:18,810 --> 01:17:17,350
but they're equally important if not

1586
01:17:22,560 --> 01:17:18,820
more so about what they tell us about

1587
01:17:26,160 --> 01:17:22,570
the origins of Judaism because among the

1588
01:17:29,070 --> 01:17:26,170
Dead Sea Scrolls there are many copies

1589
01:17:32,970 --> 01:17:29,080
of biblical texts we know from the Bible

1590
01:17:35,790 --> 01:17:32,980
you know the books of the Bible and now

1591
01:17:39,060 --> 01:17:35,800
the the earliest written copies that we

1592
01:17:40,500 --> 01:17:39,070
have everything else comes from much

1593
01:17:43,250 --> 01:17:40,510
later you know even obviously those

1594
01:17:47,190 --> 01:17:43,260
books would have been around a long time

1595
01:17:49,290 --> 01:17:47,200
the original manuscripts have long since

1596
01:17:51,390 --> 01:17:49,300
disappeared so the earliest ones we have

1597
01:17:54,510 --> 01:17:51,400
of certain books of the Bible from the

1598
01:17:56,550 --> 01:17:54,520
Dead Sea Scrolls and they show the

1599
01:17:59,570 --> 01:17:56,560
things that had changed they preserve a

1600
01:18:03,000 --> 01:17:59,580
much more faithful original version of

1601
01:18:08,640 --> 01:18:03,010
of those books one of the most telling

1602
01:18:12,479 --> 01:18:08,650
things is that in those copies among the

1603
01:18:15,030 --> 01:18:12,489
Dead Sea Scrolls they use the term gods

1604
01:18:17,940 --> 01:18:15,040
we're in the later bible that version we

1605
01:18:20,340 --> 01:18:17,950
have now they use the term angels they

1606
01:18:22,560 --> 01:18:20,350
actually show that even as late as the

1607
01:18:24,450 --> 01:18:22,570
writing of the Dead Sea Scrolls

1608
01:18:27,930 --> 01:18:24,460
you know the copies of the books they

1609
01:18:32,880 --> 01:18:27,940
had referred to you know their gods

1610
01:18:35,490 --> 01:18:32,890
you know you Yahweh presiding over and

1611
01:18:38,220 --> 01:18:35,500
Assembly of the gods this gets changed

1612
01:18:41,490 --> 01:18:38,230
to angels later but it's so it's telling

1613
01:18:43,830 --> 01:18:41,500
us that that original form talked about

1614
01:18:45,390 --> 01:18:43,840
multiple gods even as late as that even

1615
01:18:47,130 --> 01:18:45,400
as late as the Dead Sea Scrolls which

1616
01:18:51,229 --> 01:18:47,140
are you know the last couple of

1617
01:18:54,450 --> 01:18:51,239
centuries BC so they tell us a lot about

1618
01:18:59,000 --> 01:18:54,460
the the Judaic religion as its practiced

1619
01:19:01,890 --> 01:18:59,010
at that time before we head to the break

1620
01:19:05,940 --> 01:19:01,900
wood to be in in two minutes

1621
01:19:10,470 --> 01:19:05,950
is there a reference to a Shura anywhere

1622
01:19:13,590 --> 01:19:10,480
in the Dead Sea Scrolls off top of my

1623
01:19:15,270 --> 01:19:13,600
head I don't recall but I don't I don't

1624
01:19:17,190 --> 01:19:15,280
think there's a specific one cuz it's

1625
01:19:20,430 --> 01:19:17,200
not for men it's not those books that

1626
01:19:21,750 --> 01:19:20,440
are it's not for example in some of the

1627
01:19:23,580 --> 01:19:21,760
books of Moses as well all the

1628
01:19:25,620 --> 01:19:23,590
references to a Shura are and the ones

1629
01:19:27,660 --> 01:19:25,630
and the Dead Sea Scrolls are some of the

1630
01:19:30,660 --> 01:19:27,670
the later books you know the kings and

1631
01:19:32,250 --> 01:19:30,670
chronicles so off the top of my head

1632
01:19:35,060 --> 01:19:32,260
might be wrong top of my head I don't

1633
01:19:37,560 --> 01:19:35,070
recall a specific reference to a schwa

1634
01:19:41,520 --> 01:19:37,570
but there were certainly references to

1635
01:19:43,530 --> 01:19:41,530
the gods and the reason why I bring that

1636
01:19:46,110 --> 01:19:43,540
up and we only know about a small

1637
01:19:47,970 --> 01:19:46,120
fraction of the Dead Sea Scrolls so we

1638
01:19:50,940 --> 01:19:47,980
need to be clear on that there may be

1639
01:19:55,050 --> 01:19:50,950
reasons for that and one of them being a

1640
01:19:59,700 --> 01:19:55,060
Shura but do you think that she was

1641
01:20:02,100 --> 01:19:59,710
starting to get her omissions right by

1642
01:20:04,140 --> 01:20:02,110
the time the Dead Sea Scrolls started to

1643
01:20:08,000 --> 01:20:04,150
get it established and and those were

1644
01:20:10,380 --> 01:20:08,010
chronicled she'd been written out of the

1645
01:20:12,420 --> 01:20:10,390
kind of mainstream village and the one

1646
01:20:14,400 --> 01:20:12,430
clerk controlled by the temple in

1647
01:20:17,430 --> 01:20:14,410
Jerusalem she would always been written

1648
01:20:21,840 --> 01:20:17,440
out by that period but of course the the

1649
01:20:24,060 --> 01:20:21,850
Qumran sect that that the road caught or

1650
01:20:25,770 --> 01:20:24,070
had or preserved the Dead Sea scrolls

1651
01:20:28,469 --> 01:20:25,780
were

1652
01:20:31,049 --> 01:20:28,479
a kind of dissident sect so you know

1653
01:20:33,719 --> 01:20:31,059
that they didn't represent temple

1654
01:20:37,259 --> 01:20:33,729
orthodoxy what their actual attitude to

1655
01:20:39,450 --> 01:20:37,269
the feminine was his it is hard to

1656
01:20:42,569 --> 01:20:39,460
reconstruct from their from their books

1657
01:20:45,450 --> 01:20:42,579
but certainly a Shura had been she'd

1658
01:20:48,209 --> 01:20:45,460
been amazed by that period they said

1659
01:20:51,540 --> 01:20:48,219
we're talking about say around 450 BC

1660
01:20:54,180 --> 01:20:51,550
when it was then the governor of

1661
01:20:59,219 --> 01:20:54,190
Jerusalem whose name was near Maya and

1662
01:21:01,049 --> 01:20:59,229
his scribe Ezra they rewrote the

1663
01:21:04,020 --> 01:21:01,059
religion at that point including

1664
01:21:07,080 --> 01:21:04,030
rewriting the history and really clamped

1665
01:21:09,509 --> 01:21:07,090
down on what the ordinary people

1666
01:21:11,790 --> 01:21:09,519
believed because in the past the

1667
01:21:14,790 --> 01:21:11,800
religion was only really the religion of

1668
01:21:16,680 --> 01:21:14,800
the elite the educated they didn't

1669
01:21:19,709 --> 01:21:16,690
really bother that much about what the

1670
01:21:21,239 --> 01:21:19,719
peasants and people believed but sudden

1671
01:21:23,100 --> 01:21:21,249
you get this period very much like in

1672
01:21:24,719 --> 01:21:23,110
Christianity with the spread of parish

1673
01:21:26,879 --> 01:21:24,729
churches yeah

1674
01:21:28,290 --> 01:21:26,889
top-down kind of but also of course I

1675
01:21:29,969 --> 01:21:28,300
mustn't forget that the ordinary people

1676
01:21:32,129 --> 01:21:29,979
who couldn't read or write so they

1677
01:21:33,839 --> 01:21:32,139
weren't going to leave records of what

1678
01:21:35,969 --> 01:21:33,849
they are up to or who they were

1679
01:21:37,709 --> 01:21:35,979
worshipping yeah that's exactly right

1680
01:21:41,100 --> 01:21:37,719
and that's how you control the masses

1681
01:21:43,140 --> 01:21:41,110
right yeah let's take our break our

1682
01:21:45,029 --> 01:21:43,150
guest night loom picnic and Clive Prince

1683
01:21:48,209 --> 01:21:45,039
of course we are discussing their new

1684
01:21:49,799 --> 01:21:48,219
book when God had a wife this is fade to

1685
01:21:51,810 --> 01:21:49,809
black I'm nurse Jimmy Church we'll be

1686
01:21:55,830 --> 01:21:51,820
right back with more come to the shore

1687
01:21:55,840 --> 01:22:07,959
[Music]

1688
01:22:11,780 --> 01:22:10,550
welcome back fade to black I am your

1689
01:22:15,380 --> 01:22:11,790
host Jimmy Church you can follow me on

1690
01:22:18,229 --> 01:22:15,390
Twitter I J Church radio hashtag F to be

1691
01:22:21,290 --> 01:22:18,239
is questions for myself for the guest

1692
01:22:23,930 --> 01:22:21,300
tonight Lynne and Clive and there are

1693
01:22:25,760 --> 01:22:23,940
literally hundreds of them

1694
01:22:29,209 --> 01:22:25,770
and I'm not going to be we get to all of

1695
01:22:31,400 --> 01:22:29,219
them tonight but I wanted to ask you

1696
01:22:35,930 --> 01:22:31,410
guys this and and I want to go back to

1697
01:22:38,959 --> 01:22:35,940
the comments about Moses being Egyptian

1698
01:22:41,120 --> 01:22:38,969
and we're gonna get back to that how do

1699
01:22:44,350 --> 01:22:41,130
you think the book is going to be

1700
01:22:53,959 --> 01:22:44,360
received in the more fundamental

1701
01:22:55,280 --> 01:22:53,969
sections of Jerusalem but what we're

1702
01:22:56,390 --> 01:22:55,290
saying there that hasn't been said

1703
01:23:00,080 --> 01:22:56,400
before we're just putting it all

1704
01:23:02,540 --> 01:23:00,090
together in one place as far as the that

1705
01:23:04,850 --> 01:23:02,550
side of it is concerned when we get to

1706
01:23:06,740 --> 01:23:04,860
the kind of Christianity part that it

1707
01:23:09,410 --> 01:23:06,750
does fit with some of our own really

1708
01:23:11,229 --> 01:23:09,420
original research in there to get a

1709
01:23:13,880 --> 01:23:11,239
complete picture but well

1710
01:23:16,880 --> 01:23:13,890
fundamentalists of any sort really just

1711
01:23:19,130 --> 01:23:16,890
stick to what they want to believe you

1712
01:23:20,689 --> 01:23:19,140
know and you can present evidence to the

1713
01:23:22,910 --> 01:23:20,699
contrary till you're blue in the face

1714
01:23:25,250 --> 01:23:22,920
and they'll just stick to what they want

1715
01:23:27,229 --> 01:23:25,260
to believe so they probably won't

1716
01:23:29,330 --> 01:23:27,239
you know they won't even notice us you

1717
01:23:33,320 --> 01:23:29,340
know that's the usual that's the usual

1718
01:23:34,939 --> 01:23:33,330
response so you know they worked deigned

1719
01:23:37,100 --> 01:23:34,949
to notice us you know we are beneath

1720
01:23:39,080 --> 01:23:37,110
their notice so that's the way it goes

1721
01:23:40,610 --> 01:23:39,090
but hopefully it will start a similar

1722
01:23:42,140 --> 01:23:40,620
process to what happened with the

1723
01:23:45,229 --> 01:23:42,150
Gnostic Gospels that we were talking

1724
01:23:48,729 --> 01:23:45,239
about earlier where any specialist and

1725
01:23:52,490 --> 01:23:48,739
theologian knew about them but ordinary

1726
01:23:54,800 --> 01:23:52,500
worshipers or no churchgoers didn't but

1727
01:23:57,050 --> 01:23:54,810
in the end it got to the point where you

1728
01:23:58,760 --> 01:23:57,060
know they can't ignore that and you also

1729
01:24:01,729 --> 01:23:58,770
hopefully you want to start a similar

1730
01:24:03,979 --> 01:24:01,739
process yeah I've just you know putting

1731
01:24:06,080 --> 01:24:03,989
the historical record straight yeah who

1732
01:24:09,290 --> 01:24:06,090
knows no other no other reason for this

1733
01:24:12,800 --> 01:24:09,300
yeah well I you know a direct question

1734
01:24:21,130 --> 01:24:12,810
would be is Tel Aviv scheduled for your

1735
01:24:31,390 --> 01:24:28,120
and because the the Moses okay let me I

1736
01:24:34,010 --> 01:24:31,400
wanted to get we get back and say this

1737
01:24:38,450 --> 01:24:34,020
I'm a little scrambled at the moment but

1738
01:24:43,640 --> 01:24:38,460
I wanted to say this earlier the outline

1739
01:24:45,770 --> 01:24:43,650
the abridged version of Genesis how you

1740
01:24:49,100 --> 01:24:45,780
guys like it out in the beginning of the

1741
01:24:51,590 --> 01:24:49,110
book made perfect sense to me and I've

1742
01:24:54,050 --> 01:24:51,600
read the Bible a few times and and I've

1743
01:24:57,230 --> 01:24:54,060
gone back but the way that you laid it

1744
01:25:00,650 --> 01:24:57,240
out on those few pages in the beginning

1745
01:25:02,750 --> 01:25:00,660
of the book was was perfect it was

1746
01:25:05,930 --> 01:25:02,760
really really well done and it made a

1747
01:25:08,090 --> 01:25:05,940
lot of sense so I wanted to get that out

1748
01:25:10,250 --> 01:25:08,100
of the way so everybody go if you buy

1749
01:25:18,260 --> 01:25:10,260
the book just for those three pages you

1750
01:25:23,480 --> 01:25:18,270
win is is Osiris and the that story of

1751
01:25:25,640 --> 01:25:23,490
Osiris and if you research Egypt and and

1752
01:25:27,620 --> 01:25:25,650
you read that story everybody makes that

1753
01:25:32,900 --> 01:25:27,630
parallel wait a minute this is the Moses

1754
01:25:37,790 --> 01:25:32,910
story right and and was it was it

1755
01:25:39,770 --> 01:25:37,800
rewritten to to fit right you guys know

1756
01:25:43,100 --> 01:25:39,780
what I'm saying you know exactly what

1757
01:25:49,010 --> 01:25:43,110
I'm suggesting here that the two stories

1758
01:25:51,560 --> 01:25:49,020
the two histories are the same yes I

1759
01:25:53,960 --> 01:25:51,570
mean I think that the Moses story like

1760
01:25:57,520 --> 01:25:53,970
you know many stories of these these

1761
01:26:00,020 --> 01:25:57,530
characters has been heavily mythologized

1762
01:26:03,050 --> 01:26:00,030
you know similar thing happened with

1763
01:26:05,210 --> 01:26:03,060
Jesus as well but people filled in the

1764
01:26:07,460 --> 01:26:05,220
gaps with the story bits that they

1765
01:26:09,830 --> 01:26:07,470
didn't know by borrowing from other

1766
01:26:12,560 --> 01:26:09,840
myths and that happened with Moses you

1767
01:26:14,360 --> 01:26:12,570
know being you've cast adrift on the

1768
01:26:18,590 --> 01:26:14,370
Nile yeah it's common enough in those

1769
01:26:18,830 --> 01:26:18,600
days they did that yeah and these kind

1770
01:26:20,720 --> 01:26:18,840
of things

1771
01:26:22,930 --> 01:26:20,730
it's what's led for example again we

1772
01:26:26,960 --> 01:26:22,940
come back to these biblical minimalists

1773
01:26:30,140 --> 01:26:26,970
to say oh it was all just a myth that

1774
01:26:32,600 --> 01:26:30,150
the the Hebrews borrowed Moses never

1775
01:26:33,479 --> 01:26:32,610
existed but then you look at the other

1776
01:26:35,669 --> 01:26:33,489
side of the are

1777
01:26:38,489 --> 01:26:35,679
you think there were big problems with

1778
01:26:43,649 --> 01:26:38,499
that you know if he just invented this

1779
01:26:45,209 --> 01:26:43,659
story of this character called Moses you

1780
01:26:51,060 --> 01:26:45,219
know the fact that Moses has an Egyptian

1781
01:26:52,830 --> 01:26:51,070
name let's let's talk about that for a

1782
01:26:55,799 --> 01:26:52,840
second that was a really good point in

1783
01:27:01,049 --> 01:26:55,809
the book Moses is is a common reference

1784
01:27:02,729 --> 01:27:01,059
to what son of it's its son of a god

1785
01:27:07,850 --> 01:27:02,739
normally it comes at the end of a word

1786
01:27:10,020 --> 01:27:07,860
so like Moses you know son of Thoth

1787
01:27:13,109 --> 01:27:10,030
actually that's quite a good point

1788
01:27:14,879 --> 01:27:13,119
because he's missing a bit yeah there

1789
01:27:17,609 --> 01:27:14,889
should be something before Moses but

1790
01:27:20,189 --> 01:27:17,619
there isn't but anyway but there were

1791
01:27:23,069 --> 01:27:20,199
also other characters that have again

1792
01:27:25,140 --> 01:27:23,079
it's recognized by by scholars who have

1793
01:27:28,489 --> 01:27:25,150
Egyptian names and these were among the

1794
01:27:31,080 --> 01:27:28,499
priests in the early part that the story

1795
01:27:33,270 --> 01:27:31,090
was character called Phineas there's one

1796
01:27:36,089 --> 01:27:33,280
called hophni these were actually

1797
01:27:38,939 --> 01:27:36,099
Egyptian names there's another character

1798
01:27:40,560 --> 01:27:38,949
called Murari which is Egyptian one

1799
01:27:44,930 --> 01:27:40,570
which isn't acknowledged but we think

1800
01:27:48,239 --> 01:27:44,940
should be his Miriam Moses his sister

1801
01:27:52,140 --> 01:27:48,249
which comes from an Egyptian word

1802
01:27:54,689 --> 01:27:52,150
meaning beloved of often given to the

1803
01:27:56,970 --> 01:27:54,699
daughters of Pharaohs as Moses was given

1804
01:28:03,080 --> 01:27:56,980
to the sons so there's actually a very

1805
01:28:06,569 --> 01:28:03,090
strong body of evidence that the

1806
01:28:11,069 --> 01:28:06,579
original priesthood that came out of

1807
01:28:14,910 --> 01:28:11,079
Egypt and into the Promised Land were

1808
01:28:18,209 --> 01:28:14,920
Native Egyptians not you know they were

1809
01:28:20,339 --> 01:28:18,219
actually led by an Egyptian group who

1810
01:28:23,250 --> 01:28:20,349
were in charge of the religion which

1811
01:28:27,569 --> 01:28:23,260
kind of takes the ground from under the

1812
01:28:30,029 --> 01:28:27,579
Exodus story in a way so I mean yes it

1813
01:28:32,819 --> 01:28:30,039
is you know it's a huge thing to

1814
01:28:35,339 --> 01:28:32,829
readjust your mind to if you've been

1815
01:28:37,620 --> 01:28:35,349
brought up with the Exodus story as as

1816
01:28:39,390 --> 01:28:37,630
told in the Bible and traditionally told

1817
01:28:42,629 --> 01:28:39,400
because you get the whole puss at

1818
01:28:45,629 --> 01:28:42,639
Passover thing and you know but yes I

1819
01:28:47,009 --> 01:28:45,639
mean Moses was almost certainly an

1820
01:28:50,160 --> 01:28:47,019
Egyptian

1821
01:28:56,910 --> 01:28:50,170
and as ty said not just Moses it made a

1822
01:29:01,290 --> 01:28:56,920
good movie though really made Charlton

1823
01:29:04,080 --> 01:29:01,300
Heston a star so the and I say that in

1824
01:29:07,500 --> 01:29:04,090
jest everybody don't send me email I say

1825
01:29:10,770 --> 01:29:07,510
that in jest not really is that if if

1826
01:29:15,029 --> 01:29:10,780
all of this when we look at the

1827
01:29:17,850 --> 01:29:15,039
geography of where Jerusalem is and

1828
01:29:20,370 --> 01:29:17,860
where the keys of plateau is and and

1829
01:29:20,839 --> 01:29:20,380
Lower Egypt and and what was going on

1830
01:29:23,569 --> 01:29:20,849
there

1831
01:29:26,640 --> 01:29:23,579
geographically these areas were all

1832
01:29:30,149 --> 01:29:26,650
technically one in the same they you

1833
01:29:32,989 --> 01:29:30,159
could walk from these from one area to

1834
01:29:37,620 --> 01:29:32,999
the other and if all of this foundation

1835
01:29:40,770 --> 01:29:37,630
happened at 1500 BC in Egypt right at

1836
01:29:43,830 --> 01:29:40,780
2,000 BC that all of these religions are

1837
01:29:47,850 --> 01:29:43,840
connected including Asherah and the way

1838
01:29:49,589 --> 01:29:47,860
that things were represented very strong

1839
01:29:51,689 --> 01:29:49,599
connections between the Canaanite

1840
01:29:53,370 --> 01:29:51,699
religions and Egypt and the other

1841
01:29:55,500 --> 01:29:53,380
peoples around there they kind of mixed

1842
01:29:58,830 --> 01:29:55,510
and match well yeah and also you know

1843
01:30:01,229 --> 01:29:58,840
quite late on in towards the time of

1844
01:30:03,479 --> 01:30:01,239
Jesus you know there was that this Great

1845
01:30:05,580 --> 01:30:03,489
Sea port of Alexandria in Egypt which

1846
01:30:07,709 --> 01:30:05,590
was the great melting pot I mean they

1847
01:30:09,930 --> 01:30:07,719
had Buddhists there you know they it was

1848
01:30:11,640 --> 01:30:09,940
basically you could thank I should

1849
01:30:14,669 --> 01:30:11,650
imagine huge numbers of different

1850
01:30:17,870 --> 01:30:14,679
religions there and they all lived in

1851
01:30:20,850 --> 01:30:17,880
the same area and they all interacted so

1852
01:30:22,799 --> 01:30:20,860
you know it we tend to think of the

1853
01:30:24,959 --> 01:30:22,809
ancient world has been you know it was

1854
01:30:26,310 --> 01:30:24,969
Egypt there and it was you know Sam's

1855
01:30:28,500 --> 01:30:26,320
over there and it was entirely different

1856
01:30:31,379 --> 01:30:28,510
but as you say it was walkable or

1857
01:30:35,040 --> 01:30:31,389
certainly sits on a donkey donkey you

1858
01:30:39,479 --> 01:30:35,050
know and you know and there was an awful

1859
01:30:41,310 --> 01:30:39,489
lot of trade an awful lot of debate you

1860
01:30:45,299 --> 01:30:41,320
know an awful lot of interaction between

1861
01:30:47,339 --> 01:30:45,309
all these various cultures and the other

1862
01:30:49,680 --> 01:30:47,349
point that I want to make about all of

1863
01:30:52,560 --> 01:30:49,690
this is certainly in a geographical

1864
01:30:56,759 --> 01:30:52,570
sense is when we talk about Abraham and

1865
01:30:57,970 --> 01:30:56,769
her which is modern-day Turkey today but

1866
01:31:01,990 --> 01:30:57,980
on the border of

1867
01:31:04,620 --> 01:31:02,000
Syria its göbekli tepe is actually right

1868
01:31:08,020 --> 01:31:04,630
there too as well that again

1869
01:31:12,130 --> 01:31:08,030
geographically everything is all tied

1870
01:31:13,570 --> 01:31:12,140
together yeah and the Bible stories tie

1871
01:31:16,360 --> 01:31:13,580
them together because it has you know

1872
01:31:18,340 --> 01:31:16,370
for example Abraham moving around a lot

1873
01:31:21,700 --> 01:31:18,350
as you say from Turkey he starts off in

1874
01:31:23,890 --> 01:31:21,710
Mesopotamia he goes to Egypt you know he

1875
01:31:26,680 --> 01:31:23,900
goes to what is the land that's been

1876
01:31:31,240 --> 01:31:26,690
promised to them to the what became

1877
01:31:33,640 --> 01:31:31,250
later holy sites of the religion so that

1878
01:31:36,790 --> 01:31:33,650
the Bible emphasizes this kind of unity

1879
01:31:41,890 --> 01:31:36,800
of all those territories by having the

1880
01:31:42,790 --> 01:31:41,900
characters move around a lot that's

1881
01:31:50,130 --> 01:31:42,800
right that's right

1882
01:31:52,990 --> 01:31:50,140
and so I envision a Shura and and Yahweh

1883
01:31:57,220 --> 01:31:53,000
at the very same time with the same

1884
01:32:01,540 --> 01:31:57,230
meaning through homes all the way

1885
01:32:04,810 --> 01:32:01,550
through temples across this region and

1886
01:32:08,200 --> 01:32:04,820
that's the part that today if this is

1887
01:32:11,650 --> 01:32:08,210
missing today but yet it was absolutely

1888
01:32:14,380 --> 01:32:11,660
a foundation of everything in that

1889
01:32:17,260 --> 01:32:14,390
entire geographical region it's

1890
01:32:21,520 --> 01:32:17,270
astounding to me it's a mind-blowing

1891
01:32:23,640 --> 01:32:21,530
concept yes and you don't get much more

1892
01:32:25,450 --> 01:32:23,650
of a as you say a foundation in

1893
01:32:29,770 --> 01:32:25,460
psychologically apart from anything else

1894
01:32:32,590 --> 01:32:29,780
as a father and a mother and you know so

1895
01:32:34,360 --> 01:32:32,600
a god and a goddess but also one of the

1896
01:32:35,920 --> 01:32:34,370
things I've always loved about the

1897
01:32:38,340 --> 01:32:35,930
ancient Egyptian religion which of

1898
01:32:42,880 --> 01:32:38,350
course was hugely influential on

1899
01:32:45,310 --> 01:32:42,890
judeo-christianity is is that their idea

1900
01:32:48,550 --> 01:32:45,320
of the Trinity whereas in Christianity

1901
01:32:52,540 --> 01:32:48,560
you have you know father son and assumed

1902
01:32:54,730 --> 01:32:52,550
male holy ghost holy holy spirit but the

1903
01:32:59,290 --> 01:32:54,740
ancient Egyptians had father mother and

1904
01:33:02,740 --> 01:32:59,300
child and that is just so much healthier

1905
01:33:05,860 --> 01:33:02,750
psychologically do you think that I

1906
01:33:09,250 --> 01:33:05,870
think it's suggested somewhat in the

1907
01:33:10,570 --> 01:33:09,260
book but my imagination went in this

1908
01:33:13,980 --> 01:33:10,580
direction

1909
01:33:17,710 --> 01:33:13,990
while reading it in that all of the

1910
01:33:19,900 --> 01:33:17,720
references of God speaking all of them

1911
01:33:22,360 --> 01:33:19,910
whether it's through the the arc or the

1912
01:33:24,670 --> 01:33:22,370
the burning bush that I brought up

1913
01:33:29,770 --> 01:33:24,680
earlier all of these references to God

1914
01:33:33,250 --> 01:33:29,780
speaking what was there an omission a

1915
01:33:36,100 --> 01:33:33,260
removal of maybe a Shura speaking and

1916
01:33:41,110 --> 01:33:36,110
that they had to turn it around to make

1917
01:33:42,760 --> 01:33:41,120
it you know coming from one god yes I

1918
01:33:45,340 --> 01:33:42,770
mean thinking about you know just

1919
01:33:46,930 --> 01:33:45,350
logically it must have been you know I

1920
01:33:50,260 --> 01:33:46,940
mean one thing that we certainly

1921
01:33:54,030 --> 01:33:50,270
reconstruct in the book is that you know

1922
01:33:58,170 --> 01:33:54,040
a Shura as you would expect had her own

1923
01:34:02,170 --> 01:33:58,180
priesthood with male and female priests

1924
01:34:04,870 --> 01:34:02,180
attached to the Jerusalem Temple now if

1925
01:34:06,790 --> 01:34:04,880
you've got a priesthood they will be you

1926
01:34:10,240 --> 01:34:06,800
know things will be flowing both ways

1927
01:34:14,410 --> 01:34:10,250
that'd be carrying in vacations and and

1928
01:34:19,110 --> 01:34:14,420
prayers towards the goddess but they

1929
01:34:23,920 --> 01:34:19,120
will also be bringing her words back and

1930
01:34:25,780 --> 01:34:23,930
certainly it's something we find and

1931
01:34:28,560 --> 01:34:25,790
another strand of the book which is a

1932
01:34:34,420 --> 01:34:28,570
very strongly see a tradition of

1933
01:34:37,060 --> 01:34:34,430
prophetesses of wise women who certainly

1934
01:34:39,870 --> 01:34:37,070
existed Deborah being the classic one

1935
01:34:45,070 --> 01:34:39,880
Miriam being an earlier one Moses sister

1936
01:34:46,720 --> 01:34:45,080
and their disguises prophetesses which

1937
01:34:49,930 --> 01:34:46,730
obviously means they they bring the

1938
01:34:52,360 --> 01:34:49,940
words of the God and it's assumed to be

1939
01:34:53,800 --> 01:34:52,370
a god but isn't it more likely that

1940
01:34:55,780 --> 01:34:53,810
they're bringing the words of the

1941
01:34:58,360 --> 01:34:55,790
goddess yes you often hear about the

1942
01:35:01,000 --> 01:34:58,370
prophetess is sitting under you know a

1943
01:35:04,570 --> 01:35:01,010
date palm or sitting under a tree which

1944
01:35:07,360 --> 01:35:04,580
is clear uh Tura imagery so you know

1945
01:35:10,750 --> 01:35:07,370
they are connected with her so they're

1946
01:35:15,430 --> 01:35:10,760
presumably priestesses and there must

1947
01:35:19,570 --> 01:35:15,440
have been at at some point where you

1948
01:35:23,240 --> 01:35:19,580
have a leader of a community right you

1949
01:35:27,500 --> 01:35:23,250
know that figure who comes in and says

1950
01:35:28,970 --> 01:35:27,510
you know God says we can't eat meat or

1951
01:35:31,160 --> 01:35:28,980
whatever it is whatever it is because

1952
01:35:33,410 --> 01:35:31,170
you need to have that reference you

1953
01:35:36,620 --> 01:35:33,420
can't say it came from aliens right

1954
01:35:40,130 --> 01:35:36,630
you've got to say okay from God so that

1955
01:35:41,960 --> 01:35:40,140
you the community would you know the

1956
01:35:43,760 --> 01:35:41,970
meat is spoiled or whatever it is and

1957
01:35:46,820 --> 01:35:43,770
it's gonna make them sick and so you're

1958
01:35:49,730 --> 01:35:46,830
gonna say God said there must have been

1959
01:35:52,600 --> 01:35:49,740
references we're heads you know same

1960
01:35:56,210 --> 01:35:52,610
later so I just spoke with Astra and

1961
01:35:59,150 --> 01:35:56,220
Asherah says right that that must have

1962
01:36:02,930 --> 01:35:59,160
happened right yeah yeah must have done

1963
01:36:06,080 --> 01:36:02,940
absolutely yeah I said being in areas of

1964
01:36:08,000 --> 01:36:06,090
Cleo childbirth for example yeah you

1965
01:36:10,210 --> 01:36:08,010
know where you would go to her probably

1966
01:36:12,920 --> 01:36:10,220
want these figurines were largely about

1967
01:36:15,020 --> 01:36:12,930
but you'd have a priest you you would

1968
01:36:17,120 --> 01:36:15,030
pray to a cure and you would get a

1969
01:36:19,430 --> 01:36:17,130
message back I would imagine actually of

1970
01:36:21,440 --> 01:36:19,440
course we don't know I mean you know but

1971
01:36:25,250 --> 01:36:21,450
as you said sort of using imagination I

1972
01:36:28,460 --> 01:36:25,260
mean perhaps perhaps the the yahwist

1973
01:36:31,520 --> 01:36:28,470
priests felt they were being undermined

1974
01:36:33,740 --> 01:36:31,530
by the priestesses maybe there was some

1975
01:36:35,600 --> 01:36:33,750
rivalry in the sense that you know the

1976
01:36:37,490 --> 01:36:35,610
priestesses might say well Ashura said

1977
01:36:39,830 --> 01:36:37,500
that you're not all naughty boys and

1978
01:36:41,600 --> 01:36:39,840
nobody should listen to you I mean that

1979
01:36:43,280 --> 01:36:41,610
we don't know do we we just don't know

1980
01:36:47,270 --> 01:36:43,290
but I mean it's possible there was a

1981
01:36:50,600 --> 01:36:47,280
rivalry it must have been yes yeah you

1982
01:36:51,980 --> 01:36:50,610
know and the other part about what do

1983
01:36:55,850 --> 01:36:51,990
you what do you look at it in those

1984
01:36:57,590 --> 01:36:55,860
terms there's I think somebody said

1985
01:37:01,730 --> 01:36:57,600
earlier the to the victor goes the

1986
01:37:05,120 --> 01:37:01,740
spoils right where God won out in the

1987
01:37:08,990 --> 01:37:05,130
end is there another way to look at it

1988
01:37:11,870 --> 01:37:09,000
yeah yeah you know that there's this

1989
01:37:15,460 --> 01:37:11,880
process where as we described in the

1990
01:37:19,730 --> 01:37:15,470
book is the invention of monotheism and

1991
01:37:23,090 --> 01:37:19,740
which appears to be just the results of

1992
01:37:26,600 --> 01:37:23,100
some in a way historical accidents you

1993
01:37:29,540 --> 01:37:26,610
know big tragedy is happening to the

1994
01:37:31,460 --> 01:37:29,550
people of Jerusalem you know being

1995
01:37:35,899 --> 01:37:31,470
invaded being carried off to exile in

1996
01:37:38,839 --> 01:37:35,909
Babylon and the the logic of

1997
01:37:43,009 --> 01:37:38,849
you know having made a deal made a

1998
01:37:45,199 --> 01:37:43,019
covenant with Yahweh that he would

1999
01:37:47,209 --> 01:37:45,209
protect them if they worshipped him and

2000
01:37:49,489 --> 01:37:47,219
suddenly things are going really badly

2001
01:37:51,919 --> 01:37:49,499
for them and they're thinking well God

2002
01:37:53,479 --> 01:37:51,929
wouldn't break his promise it must be us

2003
01:37:56,929 --> 01:37:53,489
that's done it wrong we don't worship

2004
01:37:59,179 --> 01:37:56,939
Him enough we don't we could could we we

2005
01:38:01,520 --> 01:37:59,189
also acknowledge other gods so we better

2006
01:38:04,520 --> 01:38:01,530
cut them out of it and you gradually get

2007
01:38:06,850 --> 01:38:04,530
get rid of a lot the other day it is

2008
01:38:10,159 --> 01:38:06,860
eventually you're just left with the two

2009
01:38:12,199 --> 01:38:10,169
Yahweh and Asherah God and Goddess and

2010
01:38:13,759 --> 01:38:12,209
still things are had bad things are

2011
01:38:15,140 --> 01:38:13,769
happening to you and you think well

2012
01:38:17,600 --> 01:38:15,150
actually we just got a worship Him

2013
01:38:19,929 --> 01:38:17,610
exclusively so we need to cut even his

2014
01:38:24,229 --> 01:38:19,939
wife out of it and then by definition

2015
01:38:26,959 --> 01:38:24,239
what you're left with is a single male

2016
01:38:28,759 --> 01:38:26,969
very male deity and things are still

2017
01:38:31,100 --> 01:38:28,769
going wrong but they couldn't allow

2018
01:38:32,929 --> 01:38:31,110
themselves to think no yeah mm-hmm and

2019
01:38:35,179 --> 01:38:32,939
that's the point where the whole thing

2020
01:38:36,620 --> 01:38:35,189
gets rewritten so it's kind of it's

2021
01:38:40,850 --> 01:38:36,630
pushed over the course of a few

2022
01:38:43,390 --> 01:38:40,860
centuries towards this this logic you

2023
01:38:46,009 --> 01:38:43,400
know the come victim of their own logic

2024
01:38:48,560 --> 01:38:46,019
and eventually you end up in this place

2025
01:38:50,089 --> 01:38:48,570
that nobody else had done before where

2026
01:38:51,859 --> 01:38:50,099
you've got rid of everything apart for

2027
01:38:53,479 --> 01:38:51,869
your male gods and of course it's not

2028
01:38:54,739 --> 01:38:53,489
just the victors who are writing the

2029
01:38:57,199 --> 01:38:54,749
history a sort of straightforward

2030
01:39:00,140 --> 01:38:57,209
objective history they're writing

2031
01:39:04,040 --> 01:39:00,150
propaganda on their own behalf to

2032
01:39:06,770 --> 01:39:04,050
propagandize to push their own their own

2033
01:39:11,959 --> 01:39:06,780
agenda and of course it really comes

2034
01:39:15,319 --> 01:39:11,969
hard to to modern-day Jewish people and

2035
01:39:17,899 --> 01:39:15,329
to modern-day Christians to actually get

2036
01:39:19,850 --> 01:39:17,909
our heads around the idea that what they

2037
01:39:21,290 --> 01:39:19,860
might be reading in either the old or

2038
01:39:23,330 --> 01:39:21,300
the New Testament the Hebrew Bible or

2039
01:39:25,939 --> 01:39:23,340
the New Testament you know is actually

2040
01:39:28,909 --> 01:39:25,949
propaganda because that undermines an

2041
01:39:32,080 --> 01:39:28,919
awful lot of ancient traditional

2042
01:39:34,969 --> 01:39:32,090
thinking about you know what constitutes

2043
01:39:39,319 --> 01:39:34,979
blasphemy even you know challenging the

2044
01:39:41,870 --> 01:39:39,329
whole idea of of God but I mean this is

2045
01:39:44,000 --> 01:39:41,880
a whole sort of you know inference of

2046
01:39:47,330 --> 01:39:44,010
many of the things that we've we've

2047
01:39:50,040 --> 01:39:47,340
turned up and put together well just

2048
01:39:54,010 --> 01:39:50,050
like NAG Hammadi right where

2049
01:39:58,240 --> 01:39:54,020
everything got flipped over if something

2050
01:40:01,930 --> 01:39:58,250
like that surfaced with these direct I

2051
01:40:07,840 --> 01:40:01,940
mean without question references to a

2052
01:40:11,860 --> 01:40:07,850
Shura would would the religious scholars

2053
01:40:17,110 --> 01:40:11,870
and leaders accept that and and go back

2054
01:40:20,620 --> 01:40:17,120
and and start to recognize the the real

2055
01:40:23,770 --> 01:40:20,630
history they might recognize the real

2056
01:40:27,990 --> 01:40:23,780
history among themselves but it would

2057
01:40:30,700 --> 01:40:28,000
take an awful lot to make them let their

2058
01:40:32,230 --> 01:40:30,710
congregations know about it I mean you

2059
01:40:33,940 --> 01:40:32,240
know when you consider that as you

2060
01:40:35,560 --> 01:40:33,950
reference NAG Hammadi you know the

2061
01:40:37,480 --> 01:40:35,570
discovery of the so-called Gnostic

2062
01:40:40,270 --> 01:40:37,490
Gospels in 1945

2063
01:40:42,730 --> 01:40:40,280
you know most most people now in church

2064
01:40:45,520 --> 01:40:42,740
who attend churches don't know about

2065
01:40:47,470 --> 01:40:45,530
them they have no idea and that was 1945

2066
01:40:50,680 --> 01:40:47,480
and they have been translated into

2067
01:40:53,860 --> 01:40:50,690
English you know um and you know they

2068
01:40:55,630 --> 01:40:53,870
just don't know um and and if they did

2069
01:40:57,340 --> 01:40:55,640
know that you know they just take the

2070
01:40:59,050 --> 01:40:57,350
traditional line that you know basically

2071
01:41:01,690 --> 01:40:59,060
they're not worth looking at you know

2072
01:41:05,190 --> 01:41:01,700
it's just one big sneer from the top

2073
01:41:08,670 --> 01:41:05,200
down yeah and and and which is exactly

2074
01:41:11,380 --> 01:41:08,680
what I'm hoping for that maybe someday

2075
01:41:14,200 --> 01:41:11,390
you would have somebody on television

2076
01:41:16,840 --> 01:41:14,210
speaking to their congregation right on

2077
01:41:19,510 --> 01:41:16,850
the radio in books and video where they

2078
01:41:22,750 --> 01:41:19,520
are saying okay and and by the way God

2079
01:41:26,320 --> 01:41:22,760
did have a wife and and her name was and

2080
01:41:29,530 --> 01:41:26,330
she said and she was worship and she did

2081
01:41:30,250 --> 01:41:29,540
have her own cult right she had her own

2082
01:41:32,830 --> 01:41:30,260
priesthood

2083
01:41:35,920 --> 01:41:32,840
yeah and these were the things that she

2084
01:41:38,140 --> 01:41:35,930
was teaching back then and this that's a

2085
01:41:40,450 --> 01:41:38,150
whole that you know what I mean that's

2086
01:41:43,510 --> 01:41:40,460
that's yeah that's a paradigm shift that

2087
01:41:45,160 --> 01:41:43,520
you can't measure but to just to give an

2088
01:41:51,040 --> 01:41:45,170
idea you know how long this process

2089
01:41:53,800 --> 01:41:51,050
takes the first book first academic book

2090
01:41:58,150 --> 01:41:53,810
written by a biblical scholar arguing

2091
01:42:01,929 --> 01:41:58,160
the case for a Shura being God's wife

2092
01:42:05,109 --> 01:42:01,939
came out in 1949 and

2093
01:42:09,060 --> 01:42:05,119
you know who's heard of it then there

2094
01:42:11,739 --> 01:42:09,070
was another classic book in 1967 by a

2095
01:42:15,040 --> 01:42:11,749
guy called Raphael pate called the

2096
01:42:17,890 --> 01:42:15,050
Hebrew goddess which also that was more

2097
01:42:19,299 --> 01:42:17,900
about stuffing in later Judaism than

2098
01:42:23,469 --> 01:42:19,309
we're talking about but it's still there

2099
01:42:25,479 --> 01:42:23,479
so that was 1967 and it's you know that

2100
01:42:29,949 --> 01:42:25,489
these books have been around for a long

2101
01:42:32,250 --> 01:42:29,959
time they've been supported now by much

2102
01:42:35,679 --> 01:42:32,260
more recent archaeological evidence

2103
01:42:40,929 --> 01:42:35,689
because these the only books are based

2104
01:42:43,239 --> 01:42:40,939
more on the reading of the text but it's

2105
01:42:45,729 --> 01:42:43,249
been you know at least 50 years that

2106
01:42:50,439 --> 01:42:45,739
this information in some form or another

2107
01:42:52,390 --> 01:42:50,449
has been around but you know slim was

2108
01:42:54,759 --> 01:42:52,400
saying did the average churchgoer

2109
01:42:57,699 --> 01:42:54,769
average the synagogue hour still has no

2110
01:42:59,049 --> 01:42:57,709
idea about it and that's partly one of

2111
01:43:00,399 --> 01:42:59,059
them with the reasons for writing the

2112
01:43:02,500 --> 01:43:00,409
book is to kind of collect all this

2113
01:43:04,779 --> 01:43:02,510
stuff together from all the scattered

2114
01:43:06,909 --> 01:43:04,789
sources and say just look at this look

2115
01:43:10,120 --> 01:43:06,919
at what happens when you join all the

2116
01:43:12,429 --> 01:43:10,130
dots between us and we've been talking a

2117
01:43:15,069 --> 01:43:12,439
lot about you know the Jewish side of

2118
01:43:21,459 --> 01:43:15,079
things and the Hebrew side of things but

2119
01:43:23,379 --> 01:43:21,469
what about the Vatican I mean that the

2120
01:43:26,279 --> 01:43:23,389
other big part of the book and the

2121
01:43:29,799 --> 01:43:26,289
reason for I think for us is because

2122
01:43:33,479 --> 01:43:29,809
these discoveries give a whole lot of

2123
01:43:37,509 --> 01:43:33,489
context and background to what we think

2124
01:43:39,580 --> 01:43:37,519
Jesus was about that there was a heavy

2125
01:43:41,850 --> 01:43:39,590
element of the Sacred Feminine and what

2126
01:43:45,729 --> 01:43:41,860
Jesus told which is where Mary Magdalene

2127
01:43:50,620 --> 01:43:45,739
comes in same reasons for writing her

2128
01:43:54,069 --> 01:43:50,630
out of the of the New Testament now but

2129
01:43:58,179 --> 01:43:54,079
you know and once we understand how

2130
01:44:02,290 --> 01:43:58,189
strong this sacred feminine God s

2131
01:44:05,169 --> 01:44:02,300
tradition had been in you know the in

2132
01:44:08,890 --> 01:44:05,179
Judaism the earlier version of Judaism

2133
01:44:10,629 --> 01:44:08,900
the Hebrew religion and how recently

2134
01:44:12,189 --> 01:44:10,639
they had been attempted to suppress it

2135
01:44:13,830 --> 01:44:12,199
and of course ideas like that are never

2136
01:44:15,990 --> 01:44:13,840
completely erased

2137
01:44:18,810 --> 01:44:16,000
who else it survived underground and he

2138
01:44:21,540 --> 01:44:18,820
starts to put a lot of context and

2139
01:44:24,000 --> 01:44:21,550
understanding on what Jesus was trying

2140
01:44:26,130 --> 01:44:24,010
to do and Mary Magdalene yeah I mean we

2141
01:44:28,380 --> 01:44:26,140
over the course of three books as we

2142
01:44:30,510 --> 01:44:28,390
mentioned the Templar revelation masks

2143
01:44:33,000 --> 01:44:30,520
of Christ and now when God had a wife

2144
01:44:35,220 --> 01:44:33,010
we've slightly shifted our position but

2145
01:44:39,390 --> 01:44:35,230
basically kept the same position that

2146
01:44:41,130 --> 01:44:39,400
that Mary Magdalene was a priestess and

2147
01:44:44,910 --> 01:44:41,140
it was kind of what what was she a

2148
01:44:47,870 --> 01:44:44,920
priestess of and we started off thinking

2149
01:44:50,220 --> 01:44:47,880
well you know there's so many Egyptian

2150
01:44:50,850 --> 01:44:50,230
references as it were to what what they

2151
01:44:53,960 --> 01:44:50,860
were about

2152
01:44:56,490 --> 01:44:53,970
it had to be ancient Egyptian religion

2153
01:44:58,710 --> 01:44:56,500
now we've shifted ever so slightly

2154
01:45:01,050 --> 01:44:58,720
really to say it was it was ancient

2155
01:45:04,920 --> 01:45:01,060
Egyptian but in a sense it was also

2156
01:45:07,320 --> 01:45:04,930
Jewish because of course we we now trace

2157
01:45:10,890 --> 01:45:07,330
an awful lot of the Jewish religion back

2158
01:45:13,080 --> 01:45:10,900
to Egypt anyway and we believe the

2159
01:45:15,360 --> 01:45:13,090
bottom line is that what Jesus was

2160
01:45:19,380 --> 01:45:15,370
trying to do was trying to return the

2161
01:45:23,190 --> 01:45:19,390
Jewish religion to its origins and its

2162
01:45:25,740 --> 01:45:23,200
origins were pretty Egyptian but also of

2163
01:45:27,660 --> 01:45:25,750
course they had a goddess and I we

2164
01:45:30,480 --> 01:45:27,670
believe that's what Jesus was trying to

2165
01:45:33,210 --> 01:45:30,490
do and that the if you like the early

2166
01:45:35,940 --> 01:45:33,220
Vatican the very very early Vatican knew

2167
01:45:40,200 --> 01:45:35,950
all that but the the last thing they

2168
01:45:42,840 --> 01:45:40,210
wanted was to have you know generations

2169
01:45:45,120 --> 01:45:42,850
of women being inspired by Mary

2170
01:45:48,090 --> 01:45:45,130
Magdalene they didn't want women to be

2171
01:45:49,740 --> 01:45:48,100
assertive or have a role in their

2172
01:45:52,590 --> 01:45:49,750
religion that they were creating as a

2173
01:45:56,790 --> 01:45:52,600
power base for themselves and in doing

2174
01:45:58,860 --> 01:45:56,800
that what they did was effectively they

2175
01:46:01,860 --> 01:45:58,870
insulted Jesus and they did it quite

2176
01:46:04,140 --> 01:46:01,870
deliberately because they knew that he

2177
01:46:07,080 --> 01:46:04,150
adored Mary Magdalene and that he

2178
01:46:10,920 --> 01:46:07,090
revered her that he honored her as a

2179
01:46:14,130 --> 01:46:10,930
priestess and he was trying to make sure

2180
01:46:15,450 --> 01:46:14,140
that she had a legacy um and it just

2181
01:46:18,000 --> 01:46:15,460
didn't happen they weren't going to

2182
01:46:20,820 --> 01:46:18,010
allow it to happen they insulted him by

2183
01:46:23,460 --> 01:46:20,830
he in effect the irony is and this is a

2184
01:46:26,430 --> 01:46:23,470
very I know it's a very tough and harsh

2185
01:46:27,720 --> 01:46:26,440
thing to say but in effect the Vatican

2186
01:46:31,830 --> 01:46:27,730
by creating what we

2187
01:46:34,380 --> 01:46:31,840
Catholicism for insulting Jesus and he

2188
01:46:37,140 --> 01:46:34,390
consulted you know he could saw he

2189
01:46:39,390 --> 01:46:37,150
listened he had conversations with her

2190
01:46:43,500 --> 01:46:39,400
yes absolutely

2191
01:46:45,450 --> 01:46:43,510
and we know this not through the New

2192
01:46:49,110 --> 01:46:45,460
Testament Gospels because you know she's

2193
01:46:51,570 --> 01:46:49,120
hardly mentioned by name in there but by

2194
01:46:53,070 --> 01:46:51,580
the Gnostic Gospels such as the Gospel

2195
01:46:53,940 --> 01:46:53,080
of Philip the Gospel of Thomas the

2196
01:46:57,270 --> 01:46:53,950
gospel of Mary

2197
01:46:59,970 --> 01:46:57,280
that's Mary Magdalene which you know

2198
01:47:02,630 --> 01:46:59,980
people on the whole in churches

2199
01:47:07,290 --> 01:47:02,640
certainly churchgoers have no idea about

2200
01:47:10,560 --> 01:47:07,300
but they are incredibly valuable sources

2201
01:47:13,650 --> 01:47:10,570
of information about the characters in

2202
01:47:15,900 --> 01:47:13,660
Jesus's mission I mean yes they are very

2203
01:47:17,790 --> 01:47:15,910
fanciful when they start talking about

2204
01:47:19,650 --> 01:47:17,800
the various cosmologies that they

2205
01:47:22,110 --> 01:47:19,660
believed in heaven and hell and the ring

2206
01:47:23,970 --> 01:47:22,120
you know twenty-nine rings of hell and

2207
01:47:26,130 --> 01:47:23,980
if you commit this sin you go to you

2208
01:47:27,920 --> 01:47:26,140
know twenty ninth rung and round the

2209
01:47:30,960 --> 01:47:27,930
corner and up the stairs and you know

2210
01:47:33,260 --> 01:47:30,970
it's all just you know ludicrous and

2211
01:47:35,370 --> 01:47:33,270
that of course is what traditional

2212
01:47:36,960 --> 01:47:35,380
Christians sees on a cell you shouldn't

2213
01:47:40,940 --> 01:47:36,970
take any notice they're just ridiculous

2214
01:47:44,310 --> 01:47:40,950
books but once they start describing

2215
01:47:47,430 --> 01:47:44,320
Jesus and the individuals in his mission

2216
01:47:50,040 --> 01:47:47,440
it all leaps into sharp focus and all

2217
01:47:51,650 --> 01:47:50,050
the nonsense falls away and quite

2218
01:47:54,060 --> 01:47:51,660
clearly all of the books I mentioned

2219
01:47:56,280 --> 01:47:54,070
Gospel of Thomas Gospel of Philip Gospel

2220
01:48:00,150 --> 01:47:56,290
Mary Magdalene they all draw on a same

2221
01:48:01,950 --> 01:48:00,160
source and they quite clearly were not

2222
01:48:03,600 --> 01:48:01,960
making it up because if they were going

2223
01:48:05,520 --> 01:48:03,610
to make something up it would be all

2224
01:48:09,150 --> 01:48:05,530
sweetness and light among Jesus and His

2225
01:48:11,790 --> 01:48:09,160
disciples but it isn't and the one thing

2226
01:48:14,940 --> 01:48:11,800
they all described is how Simon Peter

2227
01:48:16,380 --> 01:48:14,950
st. Peter hated Mary Magdalene in fact

2228
01:48:18,360 --> 01:48:16,390
he hated all women that's made

2229
01:48:19,979 --> 01:48:18,370
absolutely clear but he threatened to

2230
01:48:23,010 --> 01:48:19,989
kill her

2231
01:48:25,500 --> 01:48:23,020
you know and she she says to Jesus

2232
01:48:27,240 --> 01:48:25,510
you know he's I'm frightened of him he

2233
01:48:30,930 --> 01:48:27,250
hates me in all the race of women and

2234
01:48:33,960 --> 01:48:30,940
Peter unbelievably in this books goes to

2235
01:48:38,310 --> 01:48:33,970
Jesus and says let Mary leave us for

2236
01:48:39,840 --> 01:48:38,320
women are not worthy of life so you know

2237
01:48:41,580 --> 01:48:39,850
you really wouldn't make all that up if

2238
01:48:43,890 --> 01:48:41,590
you were just making up something

2239
01:48:47,430 --> 01:48:43,900
Jesus and His disciples I mean this is

2240
01:48:50,339 --> 01:48:47,440
obviously specific memories so if you

2241
01:48:53,010 --> 01:48:50,349
want to know anything about Mary as a

2242
01:48:56,790 --> 01:48:53,020
person because quite a lot of it is is

2243
01:48:58,169 --> 01:48:56,800
her personality shines through if you

2244
01:49:00,000 --> 01:48:58,179
wanted anything about Mary magnets a

2245
01:49:02,640 --> 01:49:00,010
person or for that matter Simon Peter is

2246
01:49:05,250 --> 01:49:02,650
a person don't go to the New Testament

2247
01:49:08,850 --> 01:49:05,260
go to the Gnostic Gospels when I read

2248
01:49:13,200 --> 01:49:08,860
and you know what were right can we do

2249
01:49:16,050 --> 01:49:13,210
some overtime can I keep you guys we saw

2250
01:49:17,760 --> 01:49:16,060
this coming didn't we okay and when we

2251
01:49:19,770 --> 01:49:17,770
come back believe it or not I'm gonna

2252
01:49:22,290 --> 01:49:19,780
squeeze some UFOs into this

2253
01:49:24,419 --> 01:49:22,300
conversations well we'll do that when we

2254
01:49:26,550 --> 01:49:24,429
come back but we're gonna continue with

2255
01:49:28,800 --> 01:49:26,560
Mary and Jesus and I have another

2256
01:49:30,060 --> 01:49:28,810
specific question to kick things off

2257
01:49:32,220 --> 01:49:30,070
stay right there we're gonna go in

2258
01:49:34,080 --> 01:49:32,230
overtime with limb picnic and a Clive

2259
01:49:36,629 --> 01:49:34,090
Prince we're discussing their new book

2260
01:49:38,790 --> 01:49:36,639
when God had a wife it was released

2261
01:49:40,790 --> 01:49:38,800
yesterday here in the United States and

2262
01:49:42,899 --> 01:49:40,800
you can go to their website picnic

2263
01:49:46,280 --> 01:49:42,909
prints.com the links are at Jimmy Church

2264
01:49:48,420 --> 01:49:46,290
radio we'll be right back more overtime

2265
01:49:59,919 --> 01:49:48,430
after this short break stay with us

2266
01:50:05,380 --> 01:50:03,310
welcome back to fade to black that's

2267
01:50:08,260 --> 01:50:05,390
right over time with Olympic net and

2268
01:50:13,300 --> 01:50:08,270
live prints you inspector I knew this

2269
01:50:14,860 --> 01:50:13,310
was gonna happen but way too much to get

2270
01:50:16,870 --> 01:50:14,870
out there and I can't wait to get you

2271
01:50:20,050 --> 01:50:16,880
guys back on the show where we can you

2272
01:50:22,930 --> 01:50:20,060
know focus on one subject and and go

2273
01:50:26,740 --> 01:50:22,940
deep I wanted to make one comment on the

2274
01:50:28,570 --> 01:50:26,750
Gnostic texts when I read through them

2275
01:50:32,010 --> 01:50:28,580
when I finally got the translations I

2276
01:50:35,590 --> 01:50:32,020
read through them and I was okay I

2277
01:50:37,810 --> 01:50:35,600
didn't freak out i I just thought this

2278
01:50:40,000 --> 01:50:37,820
is just another piece to the puzzle and

2279
01:50:44,169 --> 01:50:40,010
and we should accept it for what it is

2280
01:50:46,630 --> 01:50:44,179
and they were found for a reason how

2281
01:50:50,860 --> 01:50:46,640
they were found is an extraordinary

2282
01:50:55,360 --> 01:50:50,870
story in itself much of them were burned

2283
01:50:58,300 --> 01:50:55,370
you know to heat homes right and the

2284
01:51:01,240 --> 01:50:58,310
portion that we got was a gift you know

2285
01:51:03,610 --> 01:51:01,250
and and I really I I didn't I didn't

2286
01:51:08,020 --> 01:51:03,620
freak out I was actually okay with it

2287
01:51:10,840 --> 01:51:08,030
I remember reading it and it just felt

2288
01:51:14,140 --> 01:51:10,850
right yes it's just right

2289
01:51:16,000 --> 01:51:14,150
it felt I mean it did feel very modern

2290
01:51:18,520 --> 01:51:16,010
in a sense because of what as I said

2291
01:51:21,189 --> 01:51:18,530
from all the mad cosmology when it's

2292
01:51:23,590 --> 01:51:21,199
talking about Jesus talking to disciples

2293
01:51:26,649 --> 01:51:23,600
and them having a debate it felt

2294
01:51:28,870 --> 01:51:26,659
absolutely immediate and in a mock in a

2295
01:51:31,360 --> 01:51:28,880
modern sense actually you know as if it

2296
01:51:33,970 --> 01:51:31,370
was a transcript of a meeting it was and

2297
01:51:37,000 --> 01:51:33,980
and I'll tell you why it hit me that way

2298
01:51:39,760 --> 01:51:37,010
the versions of everything that we read

2299
01:51:42,580 --> 01:51:39,770
today are watered-down translated

2300
01:51:47,200 --> 01:51:42,590
converted Greek back to heart you know

2301
01:51:49,930 --> 01:51:47,210
Latin back to English and and we have we

2302
01:51:52,390 --> 01:51:49,940
have a representative of the original

2303
01:51:56,189 --> 01:51:52,400
text that's what we have today with the

2304
01:51:58,780 --> 01:51:56,199
Gnostic that was direct that was not

2305
01:52:01,479 --> 01:51:58,790
translated you know and retranslated

2306
01:52:04,600 --> 01:52:01,489
watered down and edited throughout time

2307
01:52:06,700 --> 01:52:04,610
it was a window of the past that was

2308
01:52:10,810 --> 01:52:06,710
absolutely very direct like you were

2309
01:52:12,910 --> 01:52:10,820
there yeah I mean it hasn't been edited

2310
01:52:15,370 --> 01:52:12,920
at all simply because those

2311
01:52:18,310 --> 01:52:15,380
his books had been hidden for centuries

2312
01:52:19,870 --> 01:52:18,320
and centuries you know and so nobody got

2313
01:52:22,180 --> 01:52:19,880
their hands on them to do any editing

2314
01:52:26,050 --> 01:52:22,190
yeah that it was it was a fascinating

2315
01:52:29,050 --> 01:52:26,060
read for me fascinating and Wow I want

2316
01:52:30,160 --> 01:52:29,060
to ask you a direct question to both of

2317
01:52:36,939 --> 01:52:30,170
you

2318
01:52:37,840 --> 01:52:36,949
important is it to go back and rewrite

2319
01:52:41,290 --> 01:52:37,850
history

2320
01:52:45,729 --> 01:52:41,300
how important is is it to the world to

2321
01:52:46,750 --> 01:52:45,739
go back and and examine and present and

2322
01:52:51,189 --> 01:52:46,760
correct

2323
01:52:55,120 --> 01:52:51,199
how important is it it's essential at

2324
01:52:57,370 --> 01:52:55,130
the same time as you know as saying this

2325
01:53:00,189 --> 01:52:57,380
is what we do you know we revisit

2326
01:53:03,150 --> 01:53:00,199
history various aspects of history

2327
01:53:06,729 --> 01:53:03,160
various stories various personalities

2328
01:53:10,060 --> 01:53:06,739
various traditions but also we're very

2329
01:53:12,280 --> 01:53:10,070
aware of that you can never get it

2330
01:53:14,740 --> 01:53:12,290
absolutely right at a distance you know

2331
01:53:18,070 --> 01:53:14,750
we weren't there you know we all we can

2332
01:53:20,590 --> 01:53:18,080
do is as Clive said kind of forensic Lee

2333
01:53:23,830 --> 01:53:20,600
delve and then piece together what we

2334
01:53:26,530 --> 01:53:23,840
find and make a hole make a story make

2335
01:53:29,530 --> 01:53:26,540
make some kind of sense out of it all

2336
01:53:33,250 --> 01:53:29,540
but you know you have to have a kind of

2337
01:53:35,620 --> 01:53:33,260
humility about it because you you you

2338
01:53:38,229 --> 01:53:35,630
weren't there you know and it's it's

2339
01:53:46,720 --> 01:53:38,239
it's somebody else's story that you're

2340
01:53:52,150 --> 01:53:46,730
trying to get right then said it is it

2341
01:53:55,419 --> 01:53:52,160
an essential thing because in a way you

2342
01:53:56,770 --> 01:53:55,429
know kind of we are our history so we

2343
01:53:58,840 --> 01:53:56,780
have to try and get it as right as

2344
01:54:01,600 --> 01:53:58,850
possible while acknowledging the fact

2345
01:54:03,310 --> 01:54:01,610
that you know then again as lynn said

2346
01:54:05,950 --> 01:54:03,320
because we weren't there we can't be

2347
01:54:08,620 --> 01:54:05,960
absolutely sure can't be a hundred

2348
01:54:12,070 --> 01:54:08,630
percent sure but so much of what we do

2349
01:54:15,640 --> 01:54:12,080
today and what we believe today is based

2350
01:54:18,250 --> 01:54:15,650
on a particular version of history a

2351
01:54:21,970 --> 01:54:18,260
particular telling of history and if you

2352
01:54:23,680 --> 01:54:21,980
have to go back and look at look at that

2353
01:54:25,080 --> 01:54:23,690
and challenge it in the light of new

2354
01:54:27,570 --> 01:54:25,090
evidence you know

2355
01:54:30,840 --> 01:54:27,580
in the light of the new particularly

2356
01:54:32,580 --> 01:54:30,850
archaeological evidence discoveries

2357
01:54:36,300 --> 01:54:32,590
you know like than their commodity texts

2358
01:54:38,220 --> 01:54:36,310
like the Dead Sea Scrolls you have to

2359
01:54:41,370 --> 01:54:38,230
take this new information on board and

2360
01:54:43,140 --> 01:54:41,380
look at what you believe previously you

2361
01:54:45,510 --> 01:54:43,150
know for a long time people believed

2362
01:54:47,580 --> 01:54:45,520
that the Bible just was history and

2363
01:54:49,080 --> 01:54:47,590
everything in it was true because they

2364
01:54:52,680 --> 01:54:49,090
really had nothing else to compare it

2365
01:54:54,890 --> 01:54:52,690
with but in the modern age we do we have

2366
01:54:59,280 --> 01:54:54,900
alternative texts we have archaeological

2367
01:55:01,860 --> 01:54:59,290
discoveries and just to close your eyes

2368
01:55:05,910 --> 01:55:01,870
to them and say no that's what we've

2369
01:55:08,400 --> 01:55:05,920
always believed must must be true you

2370
01:55:12,030 --> 01:55:08,410
know it's just it's just wrong and if it

2371
01:55:13,800 --> 01:55:12,040
affects the way you look at history and

2372
01:55:15,780 --> 01:55:13,810
it affects the belief well that's just

2373
01:55:18,210 --> 01:55:15,790
something people have to take on board

2374
01:55:20,370 --> 01:55:18,220
but it is absolutely vital that we don't

2375
01:55:23,250 --> 01:55:20,380
carry on sort of blundering into the

2376
01:55:27,810 --> 01:55:23,260
future with with these kind of blinkers

2377
01:55:31,500 --> 01:55:27,820
on about the past yeah being complacent

2378
01:55:35,280 --> 01:55:31,510
we all lose yeah absolutely yeah yeah

2379
01:55:37,920 --> 01:55:35,290
but also there's the thing too that you

2380
01:55:39,870 --> 01:55:37,930
know we automatically and it's it's

2381
01:55:42,330 --> 01:55:39,880
obvious wise it's only natural you know

2382
01:55:45,630 --> 01:55:42,340
when we look back at history we impose

2383
01:55:50,660 --> 01:55:45,640
our own 21st century views on the people

2384
01:55:55,310 --> 01:55:50,670
back then and that is often just wrong

2385
01:55:58,110 --> 01:55:55,320
you know one just an example really is

2386
01:55:59,880 --> 01:55:58,120
modern Christianity modern Christians

2387
01:56:02,640 --> 01:55:59,890
think you know what a terrible thing it

2388
01:56:04,650 --> 01:56:02,650
would be if the first Christians were

2389
01:56:08,010 --> 01:56:04,660
accused of what they would call sorcery

2390
01:56:11,430 --> 01:56:08,020
or witchcraft or magic but in fact you

2391
01:56:13,500 --> 01:56:11,440
know the early Christians they they

2392
01:56:15,840 --> 01:56:13,510
practiced what we would call magic they

2393
01:56:18,480 --> 01:56:15,850
thought in magical terms you know it's

2394
01:56:21,150 --> 01:56:18,490
not some dreadful pagan thing it's the

2395
01:56:24,180 --> 01:56:21,160
the the Christians did it and that was

2396
01:56:26,340 --> 01:56:24,190
the mindset of the time but you know it

2397
01:56:28,650 --> 01:56:26,350
again we're imposing our modern view

2398
01:56:30,330 --> 01:56:28,660
backwards so we've got to be very very

2399
01:56:32,280 --> 01:56:30,340
aware of that and have a kind of

2400
01:56:35,430 --> 01:56:32,290
humility and a respect for the people

2401
01:56:38,060 --> 01:56:35,440
back then now I can't let you get away

2402
01:56:40,860 --> 01:56:38,070
Lynne without me bringing

2403
01:56:44,460 --> 01:56:40,870
you wrote a book called the mammoth book

2404
01:56:51,300 --> 01:56:44,470
of UFOs I certainly did yes I did you

2405
01:56:53,010 --> 01:56:51,310
wrote a book called UFOs and in that

2406
01:56:55,620 --> 01:56:53,020
book you point out a couple of things

2407
01:56:58,020 --> 01:56:55,630
but I want everybody to know and you can

2408
01:57:00,360 --> 01:56:58,030
go back and check this out I'm speaking

2409
01:57:04,350 --> 01:57:00,370
to the audience and and you can go in

2410
01:57:10,200 --> 01:57:04,360
and find the book but this was written

2411
01:57:11,940 --> 01:57:10,210
in 2001 and some of the comments and the

2412
01:57:16,740 --> 01:57:11,950
way that you presented the book then

2413
01:57:19,530 --> 01:57:16,750
here we are in 2019 much of it now it's

2414
01:57:22,200 --> 01:57:19,540
not only come to pass but it is a

2415
01:57:25,920 --> 01:57:22,210
general way that we look at the UFO

2416
01:57:27,720 --> 01:57:25,930
subject today do you know when you look

2417
01:57:28,920 --> 01:57:27,730
at the way that UFOs have talked about

2418
01:57:31,350 --> 01:57:28,930
today in the way that you wrote that

2419
01:57:34,020 --> 01:57:31,360
book and your views on it certainly

2420
01:57:36,780 --> 01:57:34,030
about religion and demons and angels and

2421
01:57:38,730 --> 01:57:36,790
and religion these are these are

2422
01:57:41,880 --> 01:57:38,740
subjects that are talked about today in

2423
01:57:44,460 --> 01:57:41,890
indirect reference did you have a vision

2424
01:57:47,070 --> 01:57:44,470
of the future did you know that it is

2425
01:57:49,650 --> 01:57:47,080
this was going to be the way it was

2426
01:57:51,450 --> 01:57:49,660
going to be discussed today well I mean

2427
01:57:53,340 --> 01:57:51,460
I really didn't I'd love to be able to

2428
01:57:56,460 --> 01:57:53,350
say I did of course but that wouldn't be

2429
01:58:01,620 --> 01:57:56,470
true no I am basically I just wrote what

2430
01:58:03,390 --> 01:58:01,630
I thought and from the evidence as far

2431
01:58:06,990 --> 01:58:03,400
as I could see and I have actually seen

2432
01:58:08,550 --> 01:58:07,000
a UFO myself back in the 80s you know I

2433
01:58:10,830 --> 01:58:08,560
thought well you know this is a

2434
01:58:12,600 --> 01:58:10,840
phenomenon that it's not just nuts and

2435
01:58:13,980 --> 01:58:12,610
bolts but you know sometimes it appears

2436
01:58:16,460 --> 01:58:13,990
to be nuts and bolts sometimes it

2437
01:58:19,620 --> 01:58:16,470
doesn't it's about a shape-shifting

2438
01:58:24,630 --> 01:58:19,630
paranormal phenomenon or a series of

2439
01:58:27,660 --> 01:58:24,640
phenomena and it's it does tie back to

2440
01:58:29,580 --> 01:58:27,670
the old stories of you know the

2441
01:58:33,510 --> 01:58:29,590
appearances of demons or aliens or

2442
01:58:36,950 --> 01:58:33,520
angels or fairies particularly which

2443
01:58:38,790 --> 01:58:36,960
does suggest to me that it's not so much

2444
01:58:42,030 --> 01:58:38,800
extraterrestrials that we're looking at

2445
01:58:44,120 --> 01:58:42,040
as some kind of extra dimensional earth

2446
01:58:47,010 --> 01:58:44,130
creatures that go back a very long way

2447
01:58:50,190 --> 01:58:47,020
you know what I call the true indigenous

2448
01:58:51,780 --> 01:58:50,200
race but you know I don't know for

2449
01:58:53,700 --> 01:58:51,790
certain but it just the

2450
01:58:55,470 --> 01:58:53,710
seems to point in that direction to me I

2451
01:58:57,480 --> 01:58:55,480
mean I am absolutely not a skeptic about

2452
01:59:01,020 --> 01:58:57,490
the paranormal I grew up in a haunted

2453
01:59:03,630 --> 01:59:01,030
house you know I've seen a UFO this is

2454
01:59:06,030 --> 01:59:03,640
very important to me but to me it

2455
01:59:08,880 --> 01:59:06,040
doesn't necessarily suggest an

2456
01:59:11,070 --> 01:59:08,890
extraterrestrial hypothesis and when we

2457
01:59:12,960 --> 01:59:11,080
go back and I want Clive's opinion on

2458
01:59:16,410 --> 01:59:12,970
this too as well but Lyn let me ask you

2459
01:59:21,060 --> 01:59:16,420
when all of the research that you have

2460
01:59:22,650 --> 01:59:21,070
done with religion which is fairly

2461
01:59:25,320 --> 01:59:22,660
complete and a lot of unanswered

2462
01:59:30,660 --> 01:59:25,330
questions but your research is there and

2463
01:59:33,780 --> 01:59:30,670
when you when you research angels demons

2464
01:59:36,960 --> 01:59:33,790
gods information coming from the stars

2465
01:59:41,520 --> 01:59:36,970
from the heavens is there a direct

2466
01:59:47,850 --> 01:59:41,530
reference with religion going back that

2467
01:59:49,250 --> 01:59:47,860
could be an alien presence it as as far

2468
01:59:53,790 --> 01:59:49,260
out as that may seem

2469
01:59:58,320 --> 01:59:53,800
it seems this the stories are nearly the

2470
02:00:01,160 --> 01:59:58,330
same well I mean you know I've been

2471
02:00:03,390 --> 02:00:01,170
asked this quite a lot and I would say

2472
02:00:05,580 --> 02:00:03,400
obviously we don't know for certain we

2473
02:00:08,850 --> 02:00:05,590
just don't know I mean it could be it

2474
02:00:12,240 --> 02:00:08,860
could be that the ancient astronaut

2475
02:00:14,430 --> 02:00:12,250
theory is is correct it there could be

2476
02:00:16,560 --> 02:00:14,440
variations on that theme it could be

2477
02:00:19,620 --> 02:00:16,570
that way way back you know some beings

2478
02:00:22,380 --> 02:00:19,630
arrived or ourselves from the future or

2479
02:00:24,600 --> 02:00:22,390
whatever and then just arrived and we're

2480
02:00:27,240 --> 02:00:24,610
here relatively short space of time went

2481
02:00:29,250 --> 02:00:27,250
away and then humanity just sort of

2482
02:00:33,210 --> 02:00:29,260
recreated the story in different forms

2483
02:00:35,670 --> 02:00:33,220
and which became religion all this or it

2484
02:00:40,410 --> 02:00:35,680
could simply be that there's no alien

2485
02:00:43,980 --> 02:00:40,420
input it's just a two-way thing you know

2486
02:00:46,230 --> 02:00:43,990
humanity has has created almost as

2487
02:00:48,690 --> 02:00:46,240
thought forms the gods and they become

2488
02:00:50,370 --> 02:00:48,700
archetypes and then it's so it's a

2489
02:00:55,560 --> 02:00:50,380
two-way process it's an endlessly

2490
02:01:00,060 --> 02:00:55,570
endless recreation right and cly part up

2491
02:01:02,670 --> 02:01:00,070
the burning bush and if if we take that

2492
02:01:04,750 --> 02:01:02,680
let's just take that as a real event

2493
02:01:10,150 --> 02:01:04,760
it's a really venit really happy

2494
02:01:15,060 --> 02:01:10,160
but but Moses if that communication was

2495
02:01:16,570 --> 02:01:15,070
to was with a voice with an entity that

2496
02:01:20,710 --> 02:01:16,580
God

2497
02:01:23,350 --> 02:01:20,720
et whatever but Moses comes off the hill

2498
02:01:24,190 --> 02:01:23,360
and he needs to go and speak to the

2499
02:01:26,200 --> 02:01:24,200
Israelites

2500
02:01:29,860 --> 02:01:26,210
he can't say I was just speaking to

2501
02:01:34,450 --> 02:01:29,870
somebody from Venus and he's right he

2502
02:01:39,580 --> 02:01:34,460
can't do that he has to say it's God

2503
02:01:44,140 --> 02:01:39,590
that I spoke with well and in his own

2504
02:01:47,229 --> 02:01:44,150
terms you know would he have understood

2505
02:01:49,690 --> 02:01:47,239
you know being from Venus from what that

2506
02:01:52,150 --> 02:01:49,700
meant you know he would have had the

2507
02:01:54,970 --> 02:01:52,160
mindset of his time so he would have

2508
02:01:56,560 --> 02:01:54,980
interpreted it as a God you know it's

2509
02:01:59,979 --> 02:01:56,570
something the things we've been talking

2510
02:02:03,729 --> 02:01:59,989
about most of tonight is that the way

2511
02:02:05,860 --> 02:02:03,739
these experiences were written and told

2512
02:02:10,300 --> 02:02:05,870
many centuries later when the Hebrew

2513
02:02:12,490 --> 02:02:10,310
Bible was created now I'm sure Moses had

2514
02:02:15,640 --> 02:02:12,500
an experience with that the burning bush

2515
02:02:18,340 --> 02:02:15,650
experience only he was there too only he

2516
02:02:21,610 --> 02:02:18,350
knew what happened but then that story

2517
02:02:25,229 --> 02:02:21,620
is passed down and then you many hundred

2518
02:02:28,720 --> 02:02:25,239
years later the the temple authorities

2519
02:02:29,770 --> 02:02:28,730
impose a specific meaning on that and we

2520
02:02:32,290 --> 02:02:29,780
don't know how much they may have

2521
02:02:33,820 --> 02:02:32,300
changed what the experience was but we

2522
02:02:36,820 --> 02:02:33,830
find these experiences the whole time

2523
02:02:39,310 --> 02:02:36,830
with you know for example in Jesus after

2524
02:02:41,800 --> 02:02:39,320
his baptism it goes out into the

2525
02:02:44,080 --> 02:02:41,810
wilderness and he's tempted by Satan he

2526
02:02:46,780 --> 02:02:44,090
had an experience only he was there and

2527
02:02:50,229 --> 02:02:46,790
only he knew what it was what the

2528
02:02:51,910 --> 02:02:50,239
experience was you know say with Moses

2529
02:02:53,200 --> 02:02:51,920
and the voice from the burning bush he

2530
02:02:58,720 --> 02:02:53,210
probably didn't know what the voice was

2531
02:03:01,450 --> 02:02:58,730
either so a lot of the you know what

2532
02:03:04,530 --> 02:03:01,460
becomes the core of a religion is based

2533
02:03:07,180 --> 02:03:04,540
on an experience somebody had an

2534
02:03:11,260 --> 02:03:07,190
experience with the other you know we

2535
02:03:13,600 --> 02:03:11,270
could say extraterrestrial a God you

2536
02:03:15,560 --> 02:03:13,610
know a thought-form something breaking

2537
02:03:18,420 --> 02:03:15,570
in from another

2538
02:03:21,840 --> 02:03:18,430
dimension and other realm but you know

2539
02:03:23,370 --> 02:03:21,850
the only word you then I use of it is

2540
02:03:26,070 --> 02:03:23,380
the other because we don't know what

2541
02:03:28,890 --> 02:03:26,080
else to call him but all these religions

2542
02:03:30,780 --> 02:03:28,900
always start with those experiences but

2543
02:03:33,660 --> 02:03:30,790
then there's layers of dogma put on top

2544
02:03:35,340 --> 02:03:33,670
of them and in the end you don't

2545
02:03:38,370 --> 02:03:35,350
actually know what that core experience

2546
02:03:41,190 --> 02:03:38,380
was other than that there must have been

2547
02:03:43,560 --> 02:03:41,200
one and we see it time and time again

2548
02:03:48,150 --> 02:03:43,570
and what I find the most fascinating

2549
02:03:50,730 --> 02:03:48,160
with that is when you have Christianity

2550
02:03:54,960 --> 02:03:50,740
or Catholicism you know pick a religion

2551
02:03:56,910 --> 02:03:54,970
that will stay on the angel side of

2552
02:04:00,450 --> 02:03:56,920
things the religious side of the

2553
02:04:04,440 --> 02:04:00,460
experience but today when we talk about

2554
02:04:09,510 --> 02:04:04,450
ghosts or parallel worlds or voices or

2555
02:04:11,850 --> 02:04:09,520
entities that isn't real right accept

2556
02:04:14,540 --> 02:04:11,860
that but they will accept the

2557
02:04:17,550 --> 02:04:14,550
conversations that happen in the Bible

2558
02:04:20,070 --> 02:04:17,560
yeah absolutely couldn't agree more you

2559
02:04:22,290 --> 02:04:20,080
know it's like oh the paranoia is all

2560
02:04:24,450 --> 02:04:22,300
you know it's it's changed tainted with

2561
02:04:27,030 --> 02:04:24,460
the occult you know we can't have that

2562
02:04:29,250 --> 02:04:27,040
that's not demonical or that's that's

2563
02:04:31,530 --> 02:04:29,260
evil that's the dark side at the same

2564
02:04:33,360 --> 02:04:31,540
time as you know pushing all the stories

2565
02:04:36,060 --> 02:04:33,370
of miracles and raising from the dead

2566
02:04:38,370 --> 02:04:36,070
and you know virgin birth and and to

2567
02:04:40,140 --> 02:04:38,380
them you know that's untouchable you

2568
02:04:43,890 --> 02:04:40,150
know you can't criticize it you can't

2569
02:04:46,620 --> 02:04:43,900
you can't take it apart but they have

2570
02:04:50,220 --> 02:04:46,630
absolutely they feel they can just go

2571
02:04:52,470 --> 02:04:50,230
for other people's beliefs yeah you know

2572
02:04:55,620 --> 02:04:52,480
we can have conversations with angels

2573
02:04:58,980 --> 02:04:55,630
right yeah that's okay Jesus can go and

2574
02:05:02,280 --> 02:04:58,990
and hang out with Satan right that can

2575
02:05:07,140 --> 02:05:02,290
happen but but today if it happens it is

2576
02:05:10,020 --> 02:05:07,150
it is heretical it's it's evil it's a

2577
02:05:12,900 --> 02:05:10,030
present you know it's it it's a it's a

2578
02:05:14,550 --> 02:05:12,910
paradox I just don't understand you take

2579
02:05:16,530 --> 02:05:14,560
the other point of view the kind of

2580
02:05:18,210 --> 02:05:16,540
skeptical kind of scientific point of

2581
02:05:21,450 --> 02:05:18,220
view so all these things have been

2582
02:05:23,740 --> 02:05:21,460
illusions or delusions you know they're

2583
02:05:28,520 --> 02:05:23,750
just in

2584
02:05:29,330 --> 02:05:28,530
symptoms of mental illness or something

2585
02:05:31,820 --> 02:05:29,340
right

2586
02:05:34,820 --> 02:05:31,830
so they're not real so you've got those

2587
02:05:37,010 --> 02:05:34,830
two things religion tries to impose a

2588
02:05:39,740 --> 02:05:37,020
meaning one way and then the very kind

2589
02:05:42,140 --> 02:05:39,750
of material rationalist Scientists tries

2590
02:05:44,810 --> 02:05:42,150
to deny any of this religious or

2591
02:05:47,120 --> 02:05:44,820
paranormal ever happens and yet these

2592
02:05:49,340 --> 02:05:47,130
things have had a profound effect on our

2593
02:05:53,240 --> 02:05:49,350
history yeah but I mean you know also

2594
02:05:56,300 --> 02:05:53,250
the specific cases of people having

2595
02:05:59,209 --> 02:05:56,310
visions I mean quite recently such as

2596
02:06:02,149 --> 02:05:59,219
Bernadette you know st. Bernadette who

2597
02:06:04,490 --> 02:06:02,159
saw I mean what she actually saw was she

2598
02:06:08,930 --> 02:06:04,500
described as a little thing a little

2599
02:06:11,390 --> 02:06:08,940
girl standing in a tree and she went and

2600
02:06:13,669 --> 02:06:11,400
told the local priest about it who

2601
02:06:16,450 --> 02:06:13,679
instantly because he was very into the

2602
02:06:19,490 --> 02:06:16,460
whole you know Virgin Mary cult

2603
02:06:21,860 --> 02:06:19,500
instantly he said oh you know us you

2604
02:06:24,110 --> 02:06:21,870
know it was the Virgin Mary wasn't it

2605
02:06:26,780 --> 02:06:24,120
and she she was a completely uneducated

2606
02:06:29,030 --> 02:06:26,790
girl who was in or of his learning and

2607
02:06:31,129 --> 02:06:29,040
said well it must have been you know but

2608
02:06:33,290 --> 02:06:31,139
she's sort of backtracked a bit but

2609
02:06:36,140 --> 02:06:33,300
basically that's not what she saw and he

2610
02:06:38,600 --> 02:06:36,150
instantly imposed a mean meaning and a

2611
02:06:40,370 --> 02:06:38,610
traditional meaning on it and look what

2612
02:06:43,729 --> 02:06:40,380
it's become you know Bernadette abroad

2613
02:06:46,070 --> 02:06:43,739
you know so that was that's one just one

2614
02:06:49,340 --> 02:06:46,080
story and you can see exactly what

2615
02:06:51,350 --> 02:06:49,350
happened there well I've brings up these

2616
02:06:54,200 --> 02:06:51,360
are both great points and Clive's point

2617
02:06:56,390 --> 02:06:54,210
about you know some type of psychosis or

2618
02:07:00,080 --> 02:06:56,400
schizophrenia or Sciences can say it's

2619
02:07:03,020 --> 02:07:00,090
delusion or it's not real that's that's

2620
02:07:07,070 --> 02:07:03,030
the basis of their arguments today but

2621
02:07:10,990 --> 02:07:07,080
yet Moses can listen to the ten

2622
02:07:15,260 --> 02:07:11,000
commandments and carve this into stone

2623
02:07:17,570 --> 02:07:15,270
that was a real event and it seems to me

2624
02:07:20,450 --> 02:07:17,580
you can't have one without the other

2625
02:07:24,560 --> 02:07:20,460
because they live the same story it's

2626
02:07:26,240 --> 02:07:24,570
the same experience yeah yeah I mean

2627
02:07:29,149 --> 02:07:26,250
it's the same sort of thing you know it

2628
02:07:31,640 --> 02:07:29,159
says it's it's it's the other it's some

2629
02:07:36,100 --> 02:07:31,650
it's the other intruding into our lives

2630
02:07:40,600 --> 02:07:36,110
and and making an enormous impact

2631
02:07:43,570 --> 02:07:40,610
you know through the visionary and an

2632
02:07:46,419 --> 02:07:43,580
enormous impact for millennia basically

2633
02:07:48,910 --> 02:07:46,429
but on the other hand you know the same

2634
02:07:52,510 --> 02:07:48,920
people who take that absolutely

2635
02:07:55,180 --> 02:07:52,520
literally on board appalled

2636
02:07:57,490 --> 02:07:55,190
anybody who's ooh you know is into

2637
02:07:59,919 --> 02:07:57,500
nature worship or you know just think

2638
02:08:03,459 --> 02:07:59,929
that's just beyond the pale well and

2639
02:08:07,149 --> 02:08:03,469
should we but because I do but shouldn't

2640
02:08:09,149 --> 02:08:07,159
we accept folklore and mythology that

2641
02:08:12,729 --> 02:08:09,159
has been handed down

2642
02:08:19,720 --> 02:08:12,739
traditionally you guys live in in the UK

2643
02:08:22,870 --> 02:08:19,730
we're some of the best right it's all

2644
02:08:27,910 --> 02:08:22,880
based on something it's based on some

2645
02:08:31,120 --> 02:08:27,920
type of reality isn't it yes yeah yes I

2646
02:08:33,700 --> 02:08:31,130
mean we are big fans of folklore I think

2647
02:08:36,550 --> 02:08:33,710
it does tell us things again a meaning

2648
02:08:38,649 --> 02:08:36,560
gets imposed over the retelling of that

2649
02:08:42,910 --> 02:08:38,659
story but nevertheless it begins with

2650
02:08:46,330 --> 02:08:42,920
something yeah it begins with a real

2651
02:08:47,979 --> 02:08:46,340
experience of some kind and the

2652
02:08:50,770 --> 02:08:47,989
fascinating thing is to try and get back

2653
02:08:54,040 --> 02:08:50,780
and work out what they originally Rhian

2654
02:08:56,200 --> 02:08:54,050
s'what often it's completely impossible

2655
02:08:58,570 --> 02:08:56,210
you know we really would have to be

2656
02:09:00,550 --> 02:08:58,580
there but nevertheless it's you know

2657
02:09:02,470 --> 02:09:00,560
it's it's fascinating trying to get back

2658
02:09:05,169 --> 02:09:02,480
to that but also something that's very

2659
02:09:07,840 --> 02:09:05,179
important and obviously Jimmy you would

2660
02:09:09,609 --> 02:09:07,850
agree with this is is that we don't go

2661
02:09:11,620 --> 02:09:09,619
back and look at the stories and think

2662
02:09:13,570 --> 02:09:11,630
oh they're just Liars although all

2663
02:09:15,700 --> 02:09:13,580
they're just mad you know which a lot of

2664
02:09:17,649 --> 02:09:15,710
modern skeptics do if they bother to

2665
02:09:19,899 --> 02:09:17,659
look back at all of these stories of say

2666
02:09:23,439 --> 02:09:19,909
encounters with with fairies you know

2667
02:09:26,080 --> 02:09:23,449
classic encounters with fairies and you

2668
02:09:29,500 --> 02:09:26,090
know this there's so much there in the

2669
02:09:33,220 --> 02:09:29,510
old literal fairy stories that resonate

2670
02:09:36,310 --> 02:09:33,230
with modern encounters with you thoughts

2671
02:09:38,470 --> 02:09:36,320
or contactee stories or alien abductions

2672
02:09:40,090 --> 02:09:38,480
or whatever you know and you know

2673
02:09:42,790 --> 02:09:40,100
basically I'll be looking at the same

2674
02:09:45,220 --> 02:09:42,800
phenomenon just simply dressed up for

2675
02:09:48,010 --> 02:09:45,230
different cultures I want to thank both

2676
02:09:49,450 --> 02:09:48,020
of you I know we waited a few years for

2677
02:09:52,670 --> 02:09:49,460
tonight but it was certain

2678
02:09:55,190 --> 02:09:52,680
what an amazing conversation where

2679
02:09:56,930 --> 02:09:55,200
kidnap or two quick questions work and

2680
02:09:59,270 --> 02:09:56,940
everybody get the book and are you guys

2681
02:10:02,030 --> 02:09:59,280
gonna be coming over to the states

2682
02:10:06,680 --> 02:10:02,040
anytime soon well if somebody asks us

2683
02:10:08,510 --> 02:10:06,690
you never know we might know where they

2684
02:10:12,110 --> 02:10:08,520
can get the book was you know certainly

2685
02:10:18,740 --> 02:10:12,120
from Amazon the usual places and and

2686
02:10:20,390 --> 02:10:18,750
bookstores so sorry I'm sorry website

2687
02:10:24,260 --> 02:10:20,400
what about autograph do you guys sign

2688
02:10:28,310 --> 02:10:24,270
them kind of mechanism for doing that

2689
02:10:31,310 --> 02:10:28,320
but we should yes yes we need to find

2690
02:10:32,990 --> 02:10:31,320
some way of doing that but yeah yeah

2691
02:10:36,020 --> 02:10:33,000
we'll have to think about that yeah we

2692
02:10:38,570 --> 02:10:36,030
can't accept in in bookstores if someone

2693
02:10:41,810 --> 02:10:38,580
will have to get us over to to do a

2694
02:10:44,240 --> 02:10:41,820
signing talk yes yeah absolutely and

2695
02:10:47,570 --> 02:10:44,250
what about television are you guys doing

2696
02:10:51,020 --> 02:10:47,580
anything not as far as I know we're

2697
02:10:52,670 --> 02:10:51,030
doing an awful lot of radio but at the

2698
02:10:56,630 --> 02:10:52,680
moment we haven't got any television

2699
02:10:58,790 --> 02:10:56,640
lined up we have not specific amount in

2700
02:11:00,770 --> 02:10:58,800
this though there are some TV shows that

2701
02:11:02,120 --> 02:11:00,780
their news involved oh yes yes yes yes

2702
02:11:04,240 --> 02:11:02,130
indeed yes

2703
02:11:08,660 --> 02:11:04,250
coming around yes I mean I've done

2704
02:11:11,270 --> 02:11:08,670
ancient aliens and but the series 6 of

2705
02:11:14,120 --> 02:11:11,280
the biddin history is just being filmed

2706
02:11:16,460 --> 02:11:14,130
at the moment so so yes that there is

2707
02:11:21,530 --> 02:11:16,470
television in the pipeline yes which is

2708
02:11:24,140 --> 02:11:21,540
the question right we're going to be

2709
02:11:28,070 --> 02:11:24,150
coming over to the UK next year we're

2710
02:11:30,320 --> 02:11:28,080
gonna make those announcements today is

2711
02:11:32,810 --> 02:11:30,330
the 4th over here we're gonna make the

2712
02:11:34,970 --> 02:11:32,820
announcements on the 7th but we would

2713
02:11:36,760 --> 02:11:34,980
love to come and hang out with you guys

2714
02:11:41,120 --> 02:11:36,770
that would be amazing

2715
02:11:42,350 --> 02:11:41,130
let's do it absolutely and I look

2716
02:11:45,620 --> 02:11:42,360
forward to having you guys on the show

2717
02:11:48,710 --> 02:11:45,630
again thank you so much now go enjoy the

2718
02:11:53,630 --> 02:11:48,720
rest of your day it is now what is it 6

2719
02:11:54,190 --> 02:11:53,640
o'clock in the morning it's been a great

2720
02:11:56,750 --> 02:11:54,200
pleasure

2721
02:11:58,970 --> 02:11:56,760
wonderful thanks so much yeah thank you

2722
02:12:00,159 --> 02:11:58,980
so much and like I said enjoy the rest

2723
02:12:03,310 --> 02:12:00,169
of your day

2724
02:12:06,489 --> 02:12:03,320
and getting up this early this audience

2725
02:12:08,290 --> 02:12:06,499
really appreciates what you guys have

2726
02:12:10,149 --> 02:12:08,300
done and I want to thank you on behalf

2727
02:12:12,609 --> 02:12:10,159
of the community for an extraordinary

2728
02:12:17,679 --> 02:12:12,619
career thank you so much thank you so

2729
02:12:20,560 --> 02:12:17,689
much and with that I am going to wrap we

2730
02:12:24,009 --> 02:12:20,570
went straight to the credits tonight

2731
02:12:25,929 --> 02:12:24,019
thank you so much Lynn and Clive and the

2732
02:12:29,139 --> 02:12:25,939
book you can go straight to pick nits

2733
02:12:31,359 --> 02:12:29,149
prints calm the links are at Jimmy

2734
02:12:34,870 --> 02:12:31,369
Church radio.com click and head straight

2735
02:12:38,319 --> 02:12:34,880
over I am on my second read of the book

2736
02:12:40,120 --> 02:12:38,329
it's amazing when God had a wife

2737
02:12:41,859 --> 02:12:40,130
fade to black cigs ected producers

2738
02:12:43,560 --> 02:12:41,869
ritika Murray on show it's produced by

2739
02:12:45,969 --> 02:12:43,570
him Jay Paul Rene Dennis and Bob

2740
02:12:48,729 --> 02:12:45,979
announcers are Steve harder Jean Patou

2741
02:12:51,969 --> 02:12:48,739
'mark D Cove our webmaster is Drew the

2742
02:12:55,029 --> 02:12:51,979
geek music doug aldrich intro space boys

2743
02:13:00,729 --> 02:12:55,039
space boy music calm fade to black is

2744
02:13:03,489 --> 02:13:00,739
produced by kjsurya productions kedi ra

2745
02:13:05,560 --> 02:13:03,499
the planet this podcast on the copyright

2746
02:13:07,689 --> 02:13:05,570
a 2019 by fade to black and the game

2747
02:13:09,909 --> 02:13:07,699
changer network it cannot be rebroadcast

2748
02:13:11,589 --> 02:13:09,919
downloaded copied or used anywhere in

2749
02:13:13,089 --> 02:13:11,599
the known universe without written

2750
02:13:15,129 --> 02:13:13,099
permission from fade to black of the

2751
02:13:17,259 --> 02:13:15,139
game changer network our meals jimmy

2752
02:13:21,040 --> 02:13:17,269
church tomorrow night live from india

2753
02:13:22,629 --> 02:13:21,050
deep prasad is here until then i want

2754
02:13:24,670 --> 02:13:22,639
everybody to be safe

2755
02:13:43,880 --> 02:13:24,680
go back leat a big